I hope they don't vote to leave but I wouldn't blame them if they did. They didn't vote for Brexit and they didn't vote for this inept Tory government. Why would they want to stay in this English dominated "union".
My thoughts exactly. I'd vote leave if I was them, so I certainly wouldn't hold it against them. The No side has itself in a right pickle this time. Remainer types will have to make a case for why Scotland should stay in the light of leaving the EU, and Leave types will have to justify why they're telling voters to stay in the a worse political shitstorm than the say the EU was/is. It'll be sad viewing.
Looks like a 50/50 to me. Of course, this is all before campaigning really starts, so we should see the needle move a fair bit.
Guess we'll have to remove the blue and add that ghastly green the Welsh have on their flag. That'll look nice.
Happily burn that. Wales isn’t even represented on the Union Jack, which is pretty bad really. This would be quite good.
I have to be honest, I'm not sure our flag looking like it's going Super Saiyan is the way to go. The black seems on point though. RIP UK.
Nor did London, which has a bigger population than Scotland, with a nominal GDP of £500 billion compared to Scotlands £200 billion. So why would London want to stay when it is as much out of step on BREXIT with Wales and most of England as Scotland is. You can argue that there are parts of Scotland as out of step with Strathclyde as Edinburgh is with Newcastle. What next Orkney and Shetland demanding union with Norway? The impact of independence hits the whole of the UK. It’s not contained to the 5 million citizens that live in Scotland. Independent Scotland will want to use the UK currency, Uk resources and expect all the benefits of union, freedom of movement, customs union and a Uk single market. How you create a mechanism outside of a decision by the UK Parliament that allows all views to be expressed, is extremely difficult. Referendums are a blunt instrument, especially with a simple majority, as we have seen with BREXIT. It simply represents the views of an electorate in that day. The consequences, five, ten, twenty years later for a very different electorate and circumstances make it potentially difficult. For example, the change brought about by BREXIT is the principle hook the demand for a second referendum is hung on. ultimately if the Scottish population want to go independent, then let it be. As long as the UK is not to vengeful, with a hard border it probably will muddle along ok. Mind you it is possible that politics will change dramatically. You cant guarantee that the assumed Scottish progressive majority view would remain. What sort of Scotland would evolve? Particularly if there is a big economic hit in the first decade. After all it was not that long ago that the UK bailed out Scottish biggest business the Royal Bank of Scotland with a £87 billion rescue package. No doubt the UK would find it in its best interest to bail out an independent Scotland like it did in 1707 and an independent Ireland in 2008. The irony is that the economies and cultures of the UK and Ireland are closer integrated than the politics.
It doesn’t really matter that it affects the rest of the UK. If those living in Scotland to choose to go independent those consequences can be negotiated. It remains for Scotland only to choose. It has always been to greater or lesser degrees a separate nation and it’s not unreasonable for those living there to choose its destiny. I have preferred that independence doesn’t happen, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to see how the UK functions together. English Nationalism has failed to demonstrate it can offer Scotland anything but second class union. It’s embarrassing. London is in a different position altogether and unviable through geography or culture as an independent entity.
As the only self-identifying English Nationalist on this BBS can I pull you up on this. What de Pfeffel is doing is attempting to meld the post-Brexit UK into his interpretation of an war-time Britain: when the country was broke, terribly socially divided and most notably rejected the Churchillian version of what the county should (not could) be. This has nothing to do with English Nationalism not the circle I used to move in - it was then a very forward-looking movement that managed to survive despite many attempts to have its rhetoric/narrative stolen by the (far) right.
There's almost certainly going to be no independence vote in the foreseeable future, regardless of arbitrary dates given by the Scottish government, so this thread might have to hang on a bit to see it through to the eventual conclusion. Sturgeon isn't going to want to go the way of the Catalans and end up in exile or prison. Either she and the SNP come up with a way to do it legally or they're left with a long list of unpalatable options. Obviously the most likely gameplan is to play the 'Westminster frustrating the will of the Scottish people' card repetitively until Labour come knocking asking for support to form a UK government. Though I'm not even convinced that will be before 2029.
Sadly, it’s only you and Billy Bragg with this vision, whereas England now has hairy-eared don’t trust them Europeans, they’ve only gawn and evolved thumbs nationalists by the truckload. Their vision (triumphal, yet fearful and xenophobic) dominates through twelve years of Tory rule and has set England on collision with everyone else. You Thomas Paines must await your day.
Seeing sleb thoughts on the notions of England and Englishness sell very well (Bragg's and Paxman's spring to mind) there appears to be quite of few of us.
It's up to the Scots to decide and up to them to pay for it. They need to do it properly this time though, they need a vision of exactly what it will look like and how they will go about it. It's no good prattling on about how Scotland can stand on it's own, it's a proud nation etc. etc. Plan it this time. Questions like what currency will you use? the pound, no you wont' if you want fiscal control will not cut it. As we've seen from Brexit, do it wrong and it goes very wrong and arguably Scotland is more intertwined into the UK than The UK was with Europe. It'll take a decade at least to sort out a decent proposal. Then you've got their wish to join the EU. That's not going to happen until NI is sorted out unless they chuck a border up. I can foresee this being the end of Sturgeon. A lot of Scots are fed up with the rhetoric, they just want and deserve their country run well. Personally I don't think it'll happen. In a time where every penny counts, spending millions campaigning for this is not a great idea.
Much like here, lack of a decent alternative? Dunno just a feeling I get from my Scottish chums who seem less than impressed with the actual running the country bit.
James O'Brien said much the same a couple of days ago: https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1541452230171271169
I didn't get the Brexit I voted for. Let's learn from the mistakes of the Brexit we did get and let's not drag this thread off topic. The Scots deserve better.
I don't think it is off topic. Brexit has shown that the way to win a referendum is by painting a picture of change that can mean whatever people want it to mean. It's about offering hope to angry and left behind people regardless of whether the end goal is feasible or not. Simply put, the Brexit you voted for never existed. I would presume that despite Brexit clearly harming the economy, reducing our standing and influence in the world, failing to reduce immigration and meaning that almost every other policy area was neglected for years, you still think it worth it because "sovereignty"? If so, that's the tactic the SNP should employ - promise everyone everything, forget about the practicalities. Westminster has far more influence on Scotland than Brussels ever had on us, so the simple argument of "sovereignty" that won you over should be available to them and you are in no position to demand the SNP have an exact vision of how it will play out.
Spot on, of course it’s not off topic, it’s fundamentally relevant. I would also add that the case for independence is only made all the stronger if people in England become preachy about how the referendum should be run, or “what the Scots can expect after it”. Whatever happened to Caesar’s Cigar?
Brexit is also relevant, because without the imposition of Brexit, clearly against the will of the Scottish people, the SNP would probably not have been able to push for a second referendum so soon.
Absolutely. It's a clear display of the difference in governance that is required by the Scots which full independence may give them. My point is that they deserve the choice, but they deserve (unlike Brexit) a well thought out and planned choice.
One thing that is different I suppose is that Brexit was a choice between a stable status quo, and an absolute punt of non-defined sunlit uplands. Any independence referendum won't really have a stable status quo as an option as the UK is in no way stable. The world has changed a lot in recent years and so those who are naturally risk averse might decide they prefer the upheaval and uncertainty of independence to the absolute shitshow of being governed by Westminster, particularly with the current incumbents. The Scottish population are generally far more aligned to the mildly socialist left wing you find in several EU countries than these tedious culture war, British (they mean English) exceptionalists thinking we should still rule the waves. I can see the appeal in becoming another country of a similar size to Denmark, Finland or Ireland and enacting similar social care and tax policies.
Agree with this. There is no reason why Scotland couldn’t join the ranks of those nations. It has excellent infrastructure, two great cities and fantastic natural resources. If English Nationalists want to make the case Scotland can’t survive on its own because of its dependency, then they are making a poor case for that relationship, one that currently brings disharmony.
I stubbed it out. I’ve been hiding out in the sticks keeping my powder dry for this very moment. Waiting silently for an opportunity to arise from my slumber to counter the arguments of fear and loathing. I am not left behind, but thriving whilst witnessing the decimation of those who are not. I’ve been watching those who would leave them behind and plotting to foil their ideological triumphant trumpeting. It’s going to be a hard sell this time round, but I’m up to the challenge. Anyone here going to try and show me a way to fix our unequal Union? Other than with a fresh start through independence.
