People go on and on about motivation, but it's organisation and direction that they need. I would agree, however, that part of taking on the organisation and direction requires motivation.
I don't think anyone is saying it is just down to the manager. Players/manager/system/culture/finances are all to blame, all the ultimate resp of the owner. Wilder just doesn't get the free pass he is claiming.
It's pretty obvious to everyone, and has been obvious for a long time now, that most of this team cannot be bothered to be here anymore. If they don't care anymore then they can get lost in the Summer. We played as a team last night for eleven minutes. As soon as we scored, the individual show boating started and all the care, commitment and desire was chucked out the window. Wilder may as well leave now, he has no weight on how we perform each game as no player wants to listen to him. Cardiff were nothing special, but they did the basics of the game well, took their chances and showed our players' up for lazy shirkers they are. Players' are treating the fans and the club like mugs and are just taking the piss.
For this reason I think Wilder could be good to rebuild. He's shown now he will say it like it is and I would think the players aren't looking forward to facing him as he will pull no punches and not molly coddle them. There's an opportunity now to let him be boss and let the team know who the boss is in the dressing room. And in my opinion if Gino can't let that happen he should sell up and go because otherwise this will just continue to spiral downwards. A team ethos has to be built in the dressing room and training pitch
If I was him I would distance myself as far away from this shambles as possible. I am sure he has learnt an awful lot from this experience about bad dressing rooms, even worse owners and a fractured fanbase. No joke I would genuinely have him here next season, even just to let the players know they won't get away with not trying anymore because a new manager will be here soon. There is no way we would have been worse off keeping Edwards for the full season, he was inexperienced and still finding his feet but we would have worked forwards together. Instead we binned him off much to the delight of the apes on here and he's now got our arch rivals in 3rd! Our performances under him didn't set the world alight but he lost 2 out of 11 games. I think most would have been pleased with a handful of scrappy 1-0 wins against Rotherham, Wigan, Huddersfield, QPR and Cardiff.
An amazing conclusion. Given the track record and reputations of the managers we have had it's amazing that most end up failing at Watford. Some then leave and do well elsewhere like Gracia. That the blame is being apportioned at their feet is staggering. After all they have zero input for the most part into signings. So they get the team the owner wants and he has not got a clue. Buying players who are mentally weak, lazy, lack courage, a work ethic and are clearly substandard for the fees we pay for whatever nefarious purpose the owner has in mind. It beggars belief that after all this time with the evidence at hand that the blame is being levelled at the man in the dugout. Do you think the managers want to fail ? That they would like a blemish on their CV. Although being sacked at Watford is such a frequent occurrence most prospective future employers would hardly take that as a black mark against an ex-Watford manager. Wilder and his predecessors are not dummies or novices. They have had experience and also experienced success. It's quite clear to see the constant cycling of managers has undermined any authority they have at Vicarage Road. The players know it. And it reflects so poorly on the character of the players. Yes you can have managers who are bad. Who have odd tactics, make bizarre substitutions and pick the wrong players. But for the most part we've had managers who have done their best but as soon as the idiots purporting to wear the shirt cross the line they wilfully ignore everything that has gone on the training pitch in the week. Even under a poor manager the least you would expect from a well paid player is to put in the effort and play for some pride. These players are some of the worst characters ever to disgrace the turf at the Vic. No pride, shame knowing full well they'll be elsewhere soon. This all boils down to Gino and Scott for their continual molly coddling the players and siding with them against the manager. Ivic we assume for instance tries to instil some discipline and extra training and gets the boot because some primadonnas cannot cope.
He only says it like it is as he's on a sdhort term contract and knows he is leaving. He pulls no punches with the players and it's had zero effect. He just sounds great in post match press interviews.
The transcript of the post-match presser should be read as Wilder's Valedictory Notice: I can't disagree with a single word of that.
Edwards biggest mistake was playing Kamara at right back which appeared to be in defiance of using Gaspar, who he was bestowed upon, coupled with the Sunderland subs and result Gino obviously decided he wasn’t up to it!
Cannot really see what more Wilder can do. Players' don't care, and if they don't want to listen or try to a coach he may as well not be here.
Pretty much answers what I need to know about JP and his post-WC getting the ball on the half way line nonsense. Not following instructions. Kid thinks he’s Neymar. He isn’t.
That's a really strange post. No-one has said it's all Wilders fault. Pretty much everything you have written is correct, the club is broken, but the facts remain that Wilder hasn't been successful, has been less successful than his predecessors, and benefits from blaming others. "Do you think the managers want to fail?" . Who has suggested that they do ?
I couldn't have put it better..!! Totally agree.... This division needs a lot of grit and organisation with a sprinkling of gold dust. We have the gold dust players but there's absolutely no "foundation" to build on. This season most goals conceded come from situations where the oppo attack with speed and our players are continually caught flat-footed whilst an attacker whips in and cracks the ball into our net. Time and time again, our reaction at the back is total panic...
Nor can I. It's just missing the bit where he explains why he's even less able to have any impact on these players than Blic or Edwards. We shouldn't have replaced Edwards, and we shouldn't have replaced Bilic. There is so much to do to avert a further slide.
I know it's on another thread BUT I'm beginning to really see another failure in not replacing a excellent captain with another excellent captain: first one was Rice & the second Deeney.
Absolutely. The squad is crying out for a vocal leader on the pitch. It's a real shame that Cleverley is past his use-by date as he's the closest we have.
The old "give 'em an inch and they'd take a mile" mindset of the, and I use this word in its very loosest meaning, 'team'.
Yes. I don't agree with most that the squad is simply rubbish. I think it's more unbalanced than was expected at the start, largely due to Davis and Louza not delivering what was expected. The players seem weak, unmotivated, rudderless, gutless, selfish, disorganised but individually talented and would be able to perform in another team/manager. Even the prize of a PO place didn't seem to interest them. The 3 managers we've had this season have had a tough task to get a coherant team out of the parts they have been given. I'm really not sure what next season will bring. So much depends on what happens in the summer.
You're spot on, and Wilder basically says the same... We start well, score a goal and then the show boating starts and we lose shape... Twice in recent games we immediately crumbled after scoring then 10 minutes of fancy show boating...
Thanks so much for posting that transcript. I had only read the version on the club site. It’s a great assessment of the state of the club and team.
No, the buck stops with Gino. The issues around the squad, the players, what we're seeing on the pitch and the head coach all link back to him, his crony Giaretta and his short term-ism quick fix approach to far too many areas of the squad that's become the norm in recent seasons. The recruitment focused on player trading & his mate mogi rather than team building, the instability at head coach and the culture that has breed all stems back to Pozzo. As does the need to micro manage far too many areas of the squads daily program. And its not like its beyond fixing, but he needs to take a step back and let Manga and the new coach do their jobs without interference & micro management. You can debate whether or not Edwards was the right man for the job, but the thinking by Duxberry behind that appointment and the changes it was meant to drive was spot on. Why would there be any of this? Half the squad either arnt our players or wont be come the end of the season - and the players themselves know it. The head coach never lasts more than a dozen games anymore and Wilder is only keeping the seat warm for the next guy, so why listen to him? Whats the point in calling out some of the worst culprits like Davies, Louza and Hamza when they seem to be the first names on the team sheet every week regardless? Too many of the coaches & players are passing through, they know they will go on to other things with their reputations intact and thats reflected in the dressing room culture. Wilder might not be the root cause of our woes but he hasnt covered himself in glory either. Like yourself and others have pointed out, why does he continue to pick some of these players if their attitude is so bad? Davies being a prime example. He starts games ok before getting in a sulk that seems to last until the 65th minute when his lack of fitness kicks in. He's scored twice since november. Yet he starts every game that hes fit. Louza is another one who disappeared in the first half last night when the going got tough, but he will start at the weekend. Kone, who didnt have a good game in fairness but did keep looking for the ball and kept trying and didnt hide away will be the one dropped. And in too many areas of our play we either havent improved or regressed since Wilders been here. We still create very little. We've got worse as defending as a team. It was Pedro's half hearted attempt (i use that word lightly) to close down the cross for the third goal.
I don’t really understand your logic in criticising Wilder. You don’t think the club should have replaced Edwards after his results over 11 games and yet you are judging Wilder’s for not being better over a similar period. The results have been mediocre at best all season and I would think they have been slightly worse recently because all these unsuitable players we have are simply nearing the end of a season they haven’t enjoyed and hopefully are a bit embarrassed by.
I really don't understand your logic in saying that the manager bears no responsibility at all for poor results. "You don’t think the club should have replaced Edwards after his results over 11 games and yet you are judging Wilder’s for not being better over a similar period." With hindsight no I don't think we should have replaced Edwards. Nothing to do with 11 games being too short a period to assess him, I just think we felt at the time he should have been doing better with the players he had available. However Wilder's results are considerably worse, why shouldn't we be able to judge him. It seems that because he has spoken out about how he is unable to organise or motivate his players he somehow gets a free pass ? He has to bear at least some responsibility for his results and the way his players are playing, surely ??
I like the fact Wilder has come out and said those things. Should he take some responsibility as well? Yes he should but once the players are on the pitch it is down to them. For 15 mins we looked decent and Cardiff weren't in the game. We get a very well worked goal and everything looks good. Then it falls apart. The defending for the goals is beyond laughable. Choudhury dives in for the first one which he didn't need to do, then nobody puts their body on the line. The second is similar in not one player wants to put their body on the line, nobody desperately wants to win the ball. The third is simply pathetic. Striker gets in behind Hoedt with virtually no movement and then 10 yards out has the time to control it on his chest and score. Not one player makes a challenge. It's ******* disgraceful From last nights line up who would I want to stay next season Bachmann - Could do with a new keeper but it is probably the least of our problems Andrews - Obviously stays Porteous - Stays Hoedt - Leave Kamara - Leave The Hair - Leave Sarr - Leave Kone - Stay Louza - Stay but not if he is going to play like he did since coming back from injury Pedro - Leave. One of the ones not following instructions and for all his talent that is not acceptable Davis - Leave Subs Kabasele - Leave Ngakia - Leave Bacuna - Leave Asprilla - Build a team around him Sema - Stays. How on earth does he not start games? Araujo - Leave - 3-1 down last night and he doesn't get on the pitch. 7 out of 18 which clearly won't happen but I wouldn't miss any of them
Yes that seems fair. The obvious challenges will be; What price can we get for the saleable assets ? What does it cost to get rid of the unsaleable assets ? How much risk do the owners take wrt to the debt levels - pay debt down or bet the ranch on promotion or bust (literally). My worry is they will be prepared to bet the ranch. The £ gain in promotion is much greater than the £ loss with administration now. How do we attract the many new players we'd want to bring in vs the competition ? How do we attract the manager we want vs the competition ?
Obviously the loan players will go back but not sure how we get rid of players like Hoedt. Outside of Sarr, Pedro and Louza there is not a lot of money in that lot
He did say though that he'll be giving his honest assessment to the owners at the end of the season, and that could include him criticising the culture at the club which has led to this situation. Davis and Louza were obvious ones from his comments, but he also references JP and Sarr. You could be right about the other names as well but not sure how you could ascertain they were definitely "in particular" who he was referring to? Though I doubt there would be many players that would have escaped his ire from his comments.
Who do we manage to get rid of because of contracts / they are a loan? Kamara (unless Udinese kindly loan him to us again) Chowder Davis Araujo are all out, who is out of contract?
I agree with some of that - but just look at how Boro have been doing since Wilder left and Carrick took over.
Yes agree but we still have the likes of Clevs/Kaba/Ngakia to payoff (maybe Clevs finish this summer ?). Cathcart ??
Mainly the older players - Cathcart, Cleverley (though apparently we've offered him a new contract) and Sema. Then you have players like Bacuna and Brit who are only contracted until the end of the season. Sierratla, Sarr, Bachmann, Hamer, Kabs and Ngakia will all have a year left on their contracts after June.
