Rob Edwards Sacked

Don’t expect you to agree but I think Bassini was a well meaning buffoon who admittedly you don’t want as an owner. Pozzo is poison in my opinion.

 

For a while we were. At the time we beat wolves in the SF we were challenging for Europe and in a cup final having had 4 managers over 4 years. At that point the Pozzos had worked miracles but for the usual crowd that still wasn’t enough and “throwing away” a European place was inexcusable. Some people just like to moan and are never happy. We’re all built differently I guess.

 

Now you’re just making stuff up and that’s not even close to the analogy you were agreeing with is it? I thought I was the one who made up unrealistic equivalences?

 

I wonder if the early chats Edwards had with the board went like this.

Gino "Welcome to your first board team meeting Rob, today we'll be chatting about the players for this season. Here's a list of our entire roster"

Rob " Thanks Mr Pozzo. It's a real honour being here. I'll look at the list and will let you know what I think"

Audible chuckling around the room

Rob " This list is great, I'm sure we'll go up with all these players. I'll go through the areas of the team I feel is important"

Rob " Keepers. I like Foster"

Giaretta "He's going, but we've got a great young Nigerian coming in. We spent £5m on him which makes him good"

Rob " Hmmm.....ok. I can work with that.....Bachmann it is then"

Rob " The wingbacks are so vital to me and I see you've got a couple of great options here. Kiko and Kamara will destroy this league"

Giaretta " You can only have one wingback."

Rob " Only one? But I need one on both sides of the pitch"

Giaretta " Well we want to challenge you. Pick one and that's your lot".

Rob " hmmmmm......ok, well the rest of the side is still good enough to overcome that"

Rob " Centre backs.......I need players who are capable of playing with the ball at their feet. I'm not too sure about the ones you actually have here. Samir is ok, but the rest...not so sure. Will there be investment in this area?"

Loud laughter from the room

Gino "Look Rob, you can't have Samir. The rest we'll let you keep but you have to coach them and make them better. No investment as you're a coach, so use your magic"

Rob " Wow....I really appreciate the faith you're showing in me."

Rob " Midfield.....hmmm......let's skip that"

Giaretta "We're pleased you like the midfield"

Rob "Well it's not that, but I've kinda worked out what you're going to say. Cleves, Gosling both staying?

Giaretta "Yep.....good or what. You're extra lucky as we can't flog Louza because he's injured, so you'll get to keep him too by default."

Rob "Ok.....the forwards look great. Really pleased with what I have here. Cucho, King, Sarr, Dennis"

Gino " You can't have those. You can have Fletcher, who used to play for United. We'll also give you a player who's played for Inter Milan and Barcelona.......and we'll sign another stiker for £5m...to show we mean business.

Rob " That sounds promising. Who are these players?"

Giaretta "We can't tell you, as you might blab to the media, just trust us. They'll be top, top players".

Duxbury "Would you like another cup of tea?"

 

Me too, and we can add to your list the fact that unlike our last season in the Championship, we are actually permitted to watch games live now too! I fear Covid will still be a big threat and have an impact this autumn/winter but it seems hard to envisage more shut-outs. So that’s another bonus.

I love the week before the season starts. All the previews and discussions of every club’s chances. Hope often triumphing over reality. That feeling of ‘hmm well we do have our issues but could it be our year etc’. The innocence of not knowing your fate! Of course reality often comes crashing in come September but for now I think it’s an exciting time full of hope and wondering.

Am I totally happy with our squad? Definitely not. Am I convinced lessons have been learned? No, most certainly not. Do I like the new signings? Hmm, only one, maybe two. Am I worried about no left-footed defenders maybe until the last day of the window? Yes. Do I like Pozzo? No, not any more.

So for sure things ain’t perfect. I think it would be hard to justify everything that’s going on.

But..

It’s summer. Hodgson has gone. The moroseness seems to have left the football side of the club. Edwards is a breath of fresh air, an eager bunny with a point to prove. For now we still have Sarr and Dennis. We have Pedro and Asprilla. We have lots of experience and are about to add the recent captain of one of Spain’s top sides. We are in a tough league where every match counts, but one where we might be able to win some matches and get some momentum. Heavens, we might even taste victory at the Vic again soon for the first time since we were all honouring Guy Fawkes.

I think it’s perfectly possible to be a little excited about having football back (rather than spending endless days trying to guess who said what to who behind the scenes and who feels let down and who has the final say on each signing etc) BUT still have misgivings about those running the club.

And here’s a final thought. Winning is everything. Last season was horrific because we only tasted victory 6 times. And in such circumstances every off-field negativity gets magnified many times. Managers waving to opposition fans, goalkeepers pursuing social media careers, dodgy agents sitting in the directors box etc. The same all summer as we have no wins to lift us. Even losing a couple of meaningless friendlies lowered the mood here. But just remember the mood from about January onwards two years ago as we rose from just outside the play-offs to clinch automatic. When every game really mattered, when every 3 points was loudly cheered. We all got behind the team because we actually had a winning team to get behind.

And that’s why I’m feeling excited now, 6 days from the big kick-off. Because I have hopes we will soon have a winning team to cheer again and feel happy about, despite all our misgivings.

 

You didn't care when we were doing well, it's only when we started losing that you turned. But even our doing poorly under the Pozzos is over-performing relative to our history and stature.

As with Newcastle, fans don't really give a crap who the owners are if they're exceeding the club's expectations - they're fickle that way.

You don't really get more poisonous owners than the Saudi government, but fans will tend to turn a blind eye to it if they're pumping in money and doing well on the pitch.

 

No I'm not but I appreciate that you don't want to hear it. I remember Nath in particular being really p****d off that we had missed out on europe given where we were and there were many in agreement which is why I think the comparison he made with Charlton fans is a good one. Hopefully we won't fall as far as they did. No small club survives in the prem forever and a 5 year run was better than we could have expected pre Pozzo.

 

There is a huge gaping chasm between remembering one poster was “pissed off” because we missed out on Europe (when we were so close) and the current situation of a number of posters wanting the owner out because of the terrible way the club has been run since that point.

I know you think that everything is pre ordained and little old Watford should know their place, so even though we got very close to Europe, no Watford fan had the right to be disappointed to have missed out on it because we shouldn’t be there in the first place. Surely though you can accept that some people might not share that view, and that being so close disappointment was only natural amongst some fans but disappointment at missing out on Europe doesn’t also equate to wanting the owners out?

I think you’re confusing what was in hindsight an obvious turning point in the clubs fortunes, and what people are feeling now, three years later after number of disastrous actions by the owners.

In any case, none of the above has got any relevance at all to Charlton fans wanting curbishley out, the situations couldn’t be more different.

 

Things changed. Not just on field. It was before that - summer before cup final season. Before then the club felt like it was run professionally. The culture within the club seemed healthy. Bayat was used sparingly just like any other agent. Debt while already worrying felt manageable.

Not sure what went on behind the scenes when things shifted (and ironically it felt like it was before our best ever season, but then rolled into the bonus fiasco).

 

The more this goes on the more worrying it seems for Rob. It's glaringly obvious that he is not getting what he wants or requires. Rule of 11 is completely contradictory and out the window. They find 5m for Bayat but not a similar amount for an up and coming left footed CB. Reactive instead of proactive in the market again.
I really hope he succeeds but it must be in the back of his head that he has been spun along.

 

I don't personally remember being annoyed at missing out on Europe, more that we continued to field Cathcart and Mariappa so often.

At any rate, if you are going to have a bee in your bonnet at those who were angry about missing out on Europe back then, surely you must also question the other side of the coin. Those bizarre fans that clapped the team off week in week out after pathetic defeat after pathetic defeat. Especially in light of the Gosling revelations. The players must have just laughed at them. Personally I'd rather people be aspirational than weak.

"We're all built differently I guess."

 

Perhaps.

I’ll be honest here - and everyone knows I don’t like Duxbury - but I have wondered if he was actually being genuine when he spoke of investing in Edwards and there being a culture change. Problem being that Gino won’t change so readily and maybe isn’t on board with it - it’s he with the close relationship to Bayat and it’s he who employs his mates as Sporting Directors etc.

Duxbury did suggest Edwards was his man and his choice.

I think Edwards can still succeed - but I am increasingly of the opinion that Gino and Giaretta are working separately from him when it comes to squad building.

 

You wouldn’t want to qualify for Europe these days...it would take a week to get there!

 

Indeed there is. But it wasn't just one poster. It was the usual group but I gave Nath as an example.

I don't think it's "pre-ordained" or that "we should know our place" or that "no watford fan had the right to be disappointed" that we didn't qualify. I was disappointed myself.

I'm not confusing anything. They have made a number of odd/poor decisions over the last 3 years.
I simply agreed with a post that noted the comparison with Charlton's fans over-expectations of what was realistically achieveable for their club under Curbishley. Of course the situations aren't identical but I do believe that some fans/posters believe that we "should be" back as a mid-table prem team and fail to recognise the achievement in getting us to that leval and acceptance that that successful period was bound to come to an end.

 

There's no bee in my bonnet
I don't go that often these days but I certainly didn't applaud them off the pitch after their defeats in the 2nd half of the season. As you say, some fans seems to feel the need to do that out of loyalty as an act of solidarity. Sometimes a few of the players do deserve applause, when the majority didn't....do you clap or not ? As you say, we are all different. Yes, the Gosling revelations were very damning.

 

But the Charlton situation was purely a case of getting bored of a manager, we go through 3/4 managers per season, we’re talking about owners who have now overseen two relegations in three seasons, a record low PL points total for the club, a record of consecutive home defeats, we siphon off 12x the CEOs salary to an agent that sits in the directors box wearing the club badge and we’re paying Danny Rose to play for spurs, to name but a few issues. There is no relation or relevance to people being annoyed about all of the above, and Charlton fans wanting a different playing style, they are two completely different and unrelated scenarios.

 

Charlton fans wanted to replace him because "they wanted someone who could take them to the next level" ie Europe.
I'm not saying our issue with our owners today is the same as Charlton fans issue with Curbishley. However I do believe that the sense of entitlement is similar. Any Board makes mistakes and ours has certainly made many notable errors in the last 3 years but the fact remains 6 out of the last 8 seasons have been spent in the prem and the other 2 seasons were winning promotion to the prem. Based on that fact I find it hard to conclude that on balance they have been poor owners and we would be far better off without them.
Maybe the Charlton fans "boredom" with Curbs is similar to some of our fans "boredom" with the Pozzo ownership ?

 

As someone on here once said, if you’re flying a plane and the engine cuts out, thinking that everything is ok because you’re still in the sky is a fools paradise.

 

Another of your bizarre analogies

 

As is your bizarre 6 of the last 8 seasons have been spent in the Prem spin, hardly reflective of the actual situation is it?

 

Well they can glide for miles depending on height of course.

 

I don't think it's entitled to not want your club to be used a player trading platform at expense of first team, to not want to be inextricably linked to an agent facing money laundering charges, to want a coherent transfer strategy, to not want the club encumbered with vast debt, to not have 3 managers per season, to not have a club where the culture is disgraceful and indisciplined (see Gosling) etc etc etc.

Surely those wishes are just basic requests from any fan, rather than some misguided entitled approach?

 

All fair comments. I'm just a big picture man. If they can be successful despite those failures then I'm willing to overlook. I am worried about the debt though, and dealings with Bayat in case of any legal impact, and I just don't understand why we think that we get a good deal from using him, almost exclusively.

 

It is isn't it ? And the other 2 years were winning promotion ? Or am I a year out ? Or is it more accurate to say we are flying a plane with the engine having cut out ?

 

Is it just me?

I swear Curbishley walked because he felt like he had taken them as far as he could and didn't want to stay much longer, not because the fans wanted him gone.

Former boss Alan Curbishley was honest with fans in 2009 about why he left the club: it was because he could not give them the length of commitment they wanted. Curbs said: “I left because I'd done my 15 years and Richard Murray wanted me to commit for more than the one year I had left, but I didn't want to.

I fail to see how there is any equivalence at all.

 

Well I was just taking someone’s word for it that the Charlton fans wanted him out (because I can’t remember that far back and couldn’t be bothered to fact check) which I still didn’t see any relevance in when compared to some fans wanting Gino out, but the reality is clearly even less relevant.

 

Well if you want to sit back and admire the splendid flying you did before your engine cut out and ignore the fact you’re now hurtling towards the ground, then yeah, your way of spinning the situation works fine.

 

Yes looking to mount a promotion campaign to get a football team back to the English prem league is exactly the same as sitting back waiting for a plane to crash back to earth after its engines have died during an otherwise really enjoyable flight. Seriously I do love your analogies, they are hilarious. What was the one the other day about a drunk driver ploughing into a pedestrian being "....just like....??" (post #250 on the Rey Manaj thread)

 

Well you’re a cog aren’t you, so it’s in your nature to say the analogies don’t make sense and poke fun at them because your default setting is to defend everything Gino does at all costs.

The drunk driver one was simply drawing parallels to how people say it’s not Gino’s fault we didn’t go after, or bid for xyz player because we couldn’t afford to, completely ignoring why we can’t afford to and whose fault that is.

 

I mean, you replied 'This' to someone who made a very false equivalence about Charlton fans wanting Curbishley out, so you seem to love odd analogies yourself?

 

A "cog"? A critic of Gino ? I criticise and praise when due but the big picture says our second most successful owner in terms of results on the pitch

You're right that a drunk driver has no excuse and therefore that must mean Gino was at fault for the fact that we didn't to try to buy player xyz.
You're right that sitting on a plane that is about to crash is not a great place to be, therefore Gino is a poor owner and should sell the club.
Perfect analogies.

 

There is some similarity - it's football for a start . I agreed with the sentiment that Charlton fans did, and some posters here do, seem to think we are in a bad place right now and need changes to rectify the situation. Charlton fans weren't and came to regret their change, nor are we.

 

I think the cup final season saw an unfortunate combination of 2 important factors:
1. Pozzo & Duxbury got all dewy-eyed about how good our squad actually was & lost focus, believing their own hype about 'best of the rest'.
2. The 'Pozzo model' which had been under pressure for a couple of seasons finally became untenable to deliver sustained success in the EPL & we have nothing with which to replace it.

Hence all the increasingly bizarre decisions; if what used to work for years obviously stops working and you don't have the vast wealth that your opponents possess, it's no surprise to see Pozzo thrashing about like an injured crocodile trying to find a magic solution.

The only alternative would really to have been up-front about it and follow the Norwich approach. I doubt Pozzo is temperamentally capable of admitting what he would see as 'failure' and I doubt our fanbase at that time would have been happy with it.

Trying to find impossible solutions under conditions of extreme pressure will always lead to a loss of ability to discern the underlying 'rightness' of those decisions, as the operative is now in a situation where the end justifies the means. However, as the end becomes ever more unattainable, so the means will tend to become more unpalatable to those not in the centre of the maelstrom. Hence the increasing levels of distaste many feel about those decisions. It seems your distaste is deeper than most and so has understandably negatively affected your feelings for the club in its current incarnation.

 

In the Premier League, the reality for the likes of Sheff Utd or us is that eventually the club will make successive mistakes and then relegation inevitably comes.

The only way you can survive every year is to have enough spending power to buy yourself out of trouble. Smaller clubs don't have that, and sooner or later the mistakes will happen and relegation will follow. It's somewhat akin to Gambler's Ruin.

I'm come around to the idea that the only way a smaller club really wins in the Premier League is by running sustainably (including relegation wage drops for all players), accepting relegation and largely pocketing the cash instead of landing themselves in debt.