In a democracy, you simply vote for what you think is best; to accuse someone of being selfish for doing so is a most ludicrous argument. Do Labour voters truly believe that voting for Starmer would be best for everyone? The idea is absurd. Enough people have said they wouldn't vote Conservative no matter what. They are clearly voting entirely in their own interest, and f everyone else. It would be the same if someone said they would never vote Labour. I'd vote for anyone. Unfortunately, at the moment, it is a case of choosing between barking lunatics who despise anything they do not agree with, and the left wing Conservative party we currently have, which, though not perfect, is not demonstrably racist, anti women or beholden to impractical ideologies and lunatic extremism. I also believe we will be better off in this country if we are not tied up with European tendencies: to allow extremism in main stream politics; to wish for greater federalisation (which will lead to mass conflict within two generations); to fantasise about becoming a new super state; and to fantasise about wielding a huge army and arsenal to do its bidding. To leavers, financial issues are very much secondary to the social issues, though to listen to those in the left, it is clear their priorities are the more selfish 'what is in it for me' kind. It has been discussed ad nauseum on here, and is another example of where the 'left' has swapped places with the right, and makes a virtue of it.
To say nothing of the millions that would be spent by the wealthy to convince people to do otherwise.
Whataboutism isn’t an argument There are many things wrong with government that need to be fixed and are future battles to come; the HoL I think could be the next big long overdue change over the next decade Many things being wrong is no reason to not fix one
Yes my error, there are 2 ways to remove Boris, neither of which involve non resident qualifying foreign votes
Clearly you have the experience of what to do. But the point remains. You can’t argue your position has given us greater anything. It obviously hasn’t and the arguments around sovereignty are what they always were, shallow crap.
You didn't vote for Johnson either unless you live in Hillingdon & South Ruislip. Johnson was foisted on us by the elderly shire-folk of the Tory Party membership. I suspect even you would concede he is a venal clown. . At least the head of the commission was elected by the people who were voted in. And you can't vote for a different Queen either. Or for Clare Lady Semtex Fox to be kicked out of the HOL. Or the 12 Tory party treasurers who paid £3m each to get in. Sooooo much democracy.
The concept of 'best' could be defined in various ways. 'Best for the country as a whole'; 'best for oneself & one's family (even if that will impact negatively on the majority of one's fellow citizens)'; there may even be occasions where people can persuade themselves that there is a 'best for the country as a whole which is also the best for me & mine'. I'd suggest most people tend to vote for the second definition, but hoping it may, somehow, blur into the latter. I can see no evidence why voting for 'Starmer' should be any more absurd than voting for 'Boris'. But then, this whole process of making the party leader the 'star turn' is at the very root of the continuing erosion of the integrity of our system. It may be true that the current government do not indulge in 'impractical ideologies'. They are clearly more intent on pursuing the very practical ideology of using their control of all the levers of power to feather the nests of themselves & their cronies. And 'f everyone else' as you so succinctly put it. Should a lever prove to be beyond their control, then they'll do all they can to replace it with one they do control. I'm interested in how you are going to explain the hermetic separation of 'financial' and 'social' issues in a modern state.
And the ways to remove the president of the EU doesn't involve non residents of the EU. The UK voters can't vote out rh EU president the same way Hertfordshire residents can't vote out the UK prime minister. It's quote bizarre to be happy in a democracy up to thr level of the UK but absolutely no further
Anyway I hope all you remoaners have signed the Tony BLiar petition, 730k signatures and rising by the minute
I think I already did that, with respect to my concerns. Brexit avoids European tendencies toward facilitating extremism in main stream politics, and avoids the excessive 19 Century power fantasies of the EU. Those are social issues I feel trump any financial issues you care to mention, and I would add that I do not have to accept the doom saying of project fear as given fact. I think that should have been pretty clear from my last post.
As far as Boris is concerned, you are simply complaining that your horse lost the race and was unable to provide a viable leader for the country. The vast majority of voters went to the polls knowing their vote would return Boris as PM. But protest against reality as much as you like. And if the UK wanted to vote for another Queen, they are perfectly capable and entitled to do so. When they wish to proceed along such lines, a party will run on a Republican ticket. So it is pretty clear the what you are complaining about, is in fact the reality that not that many people agree with you, and they mostly want to live in a very different world to the one you dream of, and duly do not vote for the things you vote for. That, in a nut shell, is exactly what a democracy is supposed to do. We get it. Some people don’t like democracy.
To all those brexiteers who are now claiming 'its not about economics, we knew it would be difficult financially': if you'd claimed/admitted that at the time, you would never have won.
One valid point of discussion is the extent to which economic & financial issues directly feed into the type of social developments about which you are concerned, rightly in my view. In my view it is misguided to be overly sanguine about the fact that serious economic/financial problems would never lead to a dangerous rise in extremism in the UK. I realise committed 'Brexiteers' do not believe in the worst scenarios put forward by 'Remainers'. You don't have to believe in any Armageddon portrayals; I continue to not believe in unicorns.
Well, all you seem to want to do is put down my opinion in the most condescending manner without delivering any substance what so ever. You do not believe in unicorns, but you clearly believe that others should believe in them when you tell them they exist. I’m still waiting for the gonorrhoea epidemic, riding on the back of a project fear unicorn, we were promised. I am not saying you promoted or believed it was the case for a moment. But I am attempting to draw your attention to the worst scenarios put to us by ‘Remainers’. Someone on that side either clearly believes in unicorns, or expected idiots to take them at their word. The only idiots that did were clearly all remainers. Did everyone, that wanted one, get a turkey at Christmas? Were the shop shelves empty? Do you think any leavers lost a moments sleep worrying about these fantasies when such prophesies of doom were fashionable a few months ago whilst those who oppose Brexit cried into their EU styled hankies over their own BS? You may not believe in unicorns, but, patently, many of your peers, those you agree with politically and socially, do.
It was never about economics for me, I was clear since day one on here it was about (my view of) principles. That said if you are trying to say European economies right this minute are way ahead of the UK economy I would disagree. Everywhere is pretty f***** up as a consequence of covid, reliance of Putins gas etc. Germany inflation hit 5%, European gas bills are up 20%, French unemployment 8%, Spanish unemployment 15% etc etc. The whole of (geographical) Europe economically is a sh*t show.
It would be understandable if Brexiteers genuinely thought the Country would be better off financially (however unlikely), but the notion that you voted for it on principles is quite bizarre. Your ‘principles’ were formed by newspapers and think tanks carpet-bombing you with negativity for 25 years. They don’t feed or house anyone, have worsened our democracy and divided the UK. Stick a flag on it principles, our toffs, our cronies.
Not saying those aren't your principles (vacuous and ephemeral though I may find them). I'm ust saying Leave would not have won if they had been honest about the reasons for leaving.
Exactly. As it was there were a plethora of reasons given for leaving as well as multiple types of leaving from staying in the SM/CU to WTO. It was inevitable that whatever Brexit looked like it would never get a majority of support from the country. That is why almost all the Brexit voices outside the government are complaining that "this is not the Brexit I wanted/voted for". They were promised sunlit uplands and still believe they would have got there if only "their Brexit" had been delivered. In face of the evidence that is nothing short of delusional.
My principles were formed when I first started working in engineering and manufacturing in late 70s early 80s I watched as manufacturing industry after manufacturing industry closed down to reopen in eastern europe I worked for an automotive manufacturer, bought by a German competitor, asset stripped and closed down within 2 years, the entire production line being moved to a former soviet tank plant in east Germany and started up again, leaving thousands of British workers on the dole 2-3 million blue collar high skilled higher paid jobs gone, replaced with low pay low skill financial services call centre and amazon warehouse jobs I watched as pro EU idiot after idiot tried to convince us the EU was a level playing field and British workers and British industry had a fair and equal chance Who took us into the Common market? A Tory government. Who allowed British manufacturing to be decimated for 40 years? A Tory government. Who took us into the EU? The most right Labour government I’ve ever known. Who wanted the UK to stay in the EU? A Tory government. Now you might disagree with my principles as is your right, but if you think they were formed off the back on the last decade of media you are waaaay off the mark
Well, you are not the only person who cared about that, but in the last twenty years most of those jobs didn’t go to the EU, they went to China, India and the other Far East. There is nothing about a ‘Global Britain’ post Brexit that suggests that manufacturing is coming home, when Brexiteers like Ratcliffe and Dyson have done the exact opposite, Ratcliffe even moving production to France post Brexit. The only way that you can reverse that is incentive and regulation. Britain could have pressed for that within the EU, indeed the EU does subsidise and support manufacture within the nations. What is the Brexit plan for bringing lo-tech manufacturing home? What’s going to make the Rees-Mogg hedge fund invest in paying higher wages within the UK? If even Brexiteers won’t manufacture here? It won’t. You either slash wages, regulation and rights or the manufacturing stays abroad. The actions that can change that need to be so strong, state interventions that we will not do alone. I get the problem, but you 100% backed the wrong people to solve it and got in its place, nationalism and both political and economic decline.
I am not 'putting down your opinion'; I am suggesting there may be some nuances associated with the seemingly binary way you present your views. This is an 'opinion' forum after all. And there is absolutely no 'condescension' in how I framed my post. I merely opined that the fears you have re: extremism in politics (which I clearly stated you are correct to feel) cannot be artificially partitioned into 'financial/economic' and 'social' phenomena, but that the two are inextricably intertwined. There exists decades of research & publications on developments in the world that focus intently on the 'socio-economic' aspect of them. This leads me to believe I am not the only person to hold such an opinion. I do not believe in unicorns & the fact that I tell people I do not so believe is actually evidence that I think they should NOT believe in them. The fact you think it suggests I think they should is an extraordinary conclusion to draw. I was mildly taking the p155 out of the extreme views held by both sides of the Brexit debate by referring to 'Armageddon' & 'unicorns'. I don't think everyone that wanted a turkey got one as many people could not afford one, but that's a different discussion. I happen to think that the socio-economic factors that have led to that situation played a major part in people voting to leave the EU as that had been portrayed as an easy scapegoat for years of the UK government's mismanagement. You accuse me of 'delivering no substance whatsoever', yet regularly post opinions as fact with no supporting evidence. As you also realise, it's not easy posting such evidence without swamping the whole thread. Posts that disagree with what you may have posted are not 'attacks' on you; if you think they are, you seem to have a bit of a persecution complex.
So your principles are founded on a 30 year old resentment, and nothing to do with what is best for the country now or in the future. Fair enough.
I post opinions as opinions, even if I do so with confidence and conviction. If I state a fact, I usually support it with evidence, which is why so many people decided that replying to me was not very constructive to their narratives. I accuse you of no substance, because you have so far only expressed opinions. I do not believe that a financial crises in the UK would lead to the racial and political extremism that is allowed to fester within main stream EU zone politics. I am amazed, given our history of standing up against fascism even in the excessive 1970s, and find it bizarre that you would connect one thing with the other in the UK. In Europe, yes, because history and the presence of real extremists in their politics tells us, but to make such a connection in the UK is barking up the wrong tree. That is just one of my reasons for being glad to have left, and I think it is a good one. I don't want UK politics unduly influenced by any extremes, whether it is the right or the left, and the EU, I don't think, is either well equipped or inclined to worry itself about such things in the way the UK is. Sorry, perhaps attacked aas a bit strong. It is just that I think anyone would have taken your claim not to believe in unicorns as an implication that I, as a leaver, did. I hope I have mentioned enough 'Remainer' unicorns now that you will concede that many of the worst predictions are a whole load of bull. My turkey this year cost less than last year. The shelves were full. There was fuel in the pumps.
No. Just the belief that membership of the common market and later the EU was extremely damaging for manufacturing across the midlands and north and I took the first opportunity, as was my right, to reverse the mistake. Remain has ample opportunity to persuade the population of the merits of staying in the EU... and failed. Don't blame me for that, blame the incompetence of your own side. Remain campaign was sh*t.
The Remain campaign was very sh*t, on that we can agree! The positives of being in the EU were never explained properly. Instead it was all very negative and a negative campaign is always a turn off to the electorate.
I’m really no expert, but didn’t the challenge to manufacturing in the U.K. come from outside the EU?
No, inside and out. The root of the problem is it was always a fallacy that the EU provided UK manufacturing with a level playing field when it was anything but. To export manufactured goods to Europe means road transport to docks, ferry, then hundreds of ks road transport to the end customer, oh and by the way driving hours means intercontinental routes need 2 drivers - UK manufacture is already at a disadvantage by thousands of £££s transport costs before the goods even arrive. By comparison a German manufacturer can, within a couple of hours drive, have goods in 15+ countries. Some will argue well it works the other way too exporting goods into the UK. Well yes it does but the UK market is many time smaller and EU manufacturing will already have volumes of scale advantage to absorb some of that cost. So UK manufacturing had some protection under WTO as tariffs provided some levelling, but as soon as UK joined the common market it locked in european manufacture advantage. Within 2 decades the steel industry had shed >750,000 jobs, ship building disappeared, automotive manufacture went through a series of mergers and all but disappeared until Ford money rescued Jag and LR etc etc. Add in a Tory government under Thatcher keen to throw manufacturing to the wolves and the task was complete.
Yet that doesn't explain how leaving the EU will resurrect UK manufacturing. I would also argue any geographical disadvantages were there whether we were in the EU or not. The simple fact is that the UK decided to move to a service based economy in the 80s because manufacturing costs in other countries, especially Asia, became uncompetitively cheap. Whether the UK should or could have done more to protect it's manufacturing base is a valid question. But the UK economy has done remarkably well within the EU without it. Ironically another key industry is likely to decline now we have left the EU. Farming no longer has the backing of the EU which has a tendency (rightly or wrongly) of protectionism when it comes to agriculture. The UK government has made it clear through the Australian trade deal, and the lack of support for farming (and fishing), that it is happy for this decline to happen. If anything, I suspect the UK will move to an economy even more greatly reliant on services and innovation now we are out of the EU. But I'd be interested in your thoughts if you think that leaving the EU will, somehow, lead to a new industrial age in the UK
That sounds strange, given that practically all left wing arguments on here reflect forty odd years of resentment over Thatcher, and that it took a Conservative government to re-establish the UK as viable country.
That is right. Project fear was a loser. But think back to the arguments being made on here, and appreciate that the remain campaign is something that you all bought onto, whole sale. The problem is, the rejoin campaign is simply carrying on the same arguments.
