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Thread: Bored WITH Brexiters

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotGuy View Post
    I wrote this in the future for britain thread after I was talking about Euratom, but then thought it would hijack the thread as it was refering to brexit so I'll paste it here instead...

    [The Euratom Treaty] really shows the foolhardiness of holding a public referendum on a subject that the public - and even experts in individual fields - couldn't possibly know everytihng about. This is something I just happen to know something about in a little depth - imagine the multitude of oversights that we know nothing about that will be removed? Who is going to oversee the implentation into national regulation all of these detailed aspects of regulation from all sectors? The potential for catastrophe is huge, I can't even begin to imagine the sheer scale of incidences like this one which will come to light, nor who will profit from them at our collective expense. Who is deciding the 'future for Britain' here? Who is safeguarding us from opportunism when it comes to such intricate policy matters i.e. a single article from a treaty that few people (not least the papers) knows about, understands or cares about?

    Hyperbole and slogans are fine, its politics. I don't think the sun shines out of the EU's ********, but I don't think that there is a single member of the public, politician or expert in any field qualified to make a fair judgement on every single article from every piece of legislation - yet that is effectively what we have done. We are saying yes, we can bring all EU regulation in-house. We trust our politicians to not sell us up the river, to not be influenced by corporate or donor requirements, to have full and complete knowledge of the impact of all potential consequences from selective implementation based upon ideological will. And that is not anti-Tory rhetoric, it would go for any government, anywhere in the world.

    Effectively we are giving a blank cheque to a government to choose which legislation to bring in as they see fit, no doubt in an unbelievably short timescale which will leave no time for proper scrutiny of consequences, under intense pressure from the media and electorate to get a 'good deal' (whatever the **** that even means), while also pursuing their own ideological goals with all of the bias and baggage that comes with it. If the government wants to remove an article from an EU regulation when they begin to bring them into national legislation, who will be there to prevent them? Will every single amendment to every single regulation receive scruitiny, or will objectors be 'preventing the will of the people'? How can tens of thousands of amendments realistically be fairly scrutinised anyway? And if the government whips effectively, how will it be prevented even if it is given the floor?

    For me, this Euratom case is representative of the issues we face. Disregarding the fact that leaving the EU has been criminally over-simplified, I cannot see how there will be any sort of control over what kind of national regulation we end up with given the media pressure/hysteria surrounding brexit etc. I think that we will end up with rushed, incomplete, unscruitinised and exploited national regulation and I can't see how it could end any other way.
    Good to see some expertise other than 'economic expertise' informing this thread. What I thought was particularly interesting in the slightly different post you put up on the Future for Britain thread was that apparently Austria had a locus in denying us the go-ahead for Hinkley Point C prior to Brexit. So what possible influence should a land-locked country, the best part of 1000 miles away as the crow flies and 90 degrees at variance to prevailing winds, have on our nuclear power policy? None I'd say and with Brexit we'll be getting away from that sort of undue and unreasonable influence.

    As an aside, I'm no great fan of Hinkley Point C but I'm sure that's all been discussed on here prior to my return. So, briefly, it's an enormous vanity project that proposes utilising new and untried technology that is already running into lots of problems in France and Finland. So I'd be much happier if we proceeded with a nuclear power policy utilising currently proven technology here. More, smaller, proven power stations. And that's spoken as an environmentalist. HS2 is another vanity project but at least it makes sense and is an attempt to 'catch up with the continent' rather than trying to trump it with a white elephant.

    Of course nuclear particles can 'cross borders'. The Irish and Northern Irish already claim that Sellafield's importing some to them. But in the first instance the effect there is being/will be felt in Cumbria (Leukaemia cluster?). Didn't stop them 'voting for jobs' in Copeland though. A rather famous nuclear accident on the Ukranian/Belarus border did export some of the junk here and points in-between on a 45 degrees out south-easterly airstream and the Welsh and Cumbrian dairy industries are still suffering for that to this day. Why does Cumbria always seem to get it in the neck? And acid rain was imported by our dirty, sulphur-emitting, coal-fired power stations down the prevailing wind to Scandinavia in the 1970s and all the needles fell off the trees in their coniferous forests. Much dirtier than the average nuclear power station. But my point here is, surely it's the responsibility of our national government to respect and protect our own first. And, by extension, that should protect everyone else as well. And in the case of Hinkley Point C that would be protecting the good people of Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, South Wales and others bordering the Bristol Channel first. If they don't do that then god help us all. But we certainly don't need Austria's spanner in the works thanks very much.

    So, to get back on topic, the transfer of legislation to our national jurisdiction from the EU. Well the plan is that it will be a wholesale transfer which will, in the first instance, simply maintain the status quo. It will only become 'dangerous' if there's a forced timetable to start changing things too quickly. And currently there isn't a timetable attached. Much already exists in our own legislation anyway. I spent a fair chunk of the late 1990s helping to translate the EU Natura 2000 legislation into our own legal system. Well the Scottish legal system actually. But I'm not going to deny that undue pressure there may be. The government has promised there will be no 'bonfire of the regulations'. Can we trust them? I'm not sure. One disconcerting cameo on The Daily Politics recently was from John Whittingdale (former Thatcher right-hand-man and Culture (Ha!) Secretary). He was asked about workplace regulations. He said 'not to worry - we'll simply ask business what's currently most onerous for them and proceed accordingly'. That seems arse-about-face to me. They should surely be asking the trade unions what's most valuable to their workers first. Jo Coburn was in the chair. Neil would have picked him up on it.
    Last edited by KelsoOrn; 20-03-2017 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #1742
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    29th March will be National Kamikaze Day then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
    29th March will be National Kamikaze Day then.
    Time to hang out the bunting i.m.h.o.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Barry Endean View Post
    Of course we are capable of making our own decisions.

    However
    A) we have become 'institutionalised' in that for the last 40 years a lot of day to day stuff has been regulated by the EU with our input. We do not have the infrastructure to effectively replicate Brussels on a smaller scale, and certainly not in a managable timescale.
    B) it is suggested that we can bring in all the EU regulations as a job lot, then tinker with them at our leisure. All this pain and division and potential economic loss was worth it for that? (I forgot, actually it was aboot t' bloody muslims)
    C) Economies of scale. Which we will no longer have.
    So your proposal for those that are 'institutionalised' would be to stay 'institutionalised' and do what they're told for ever then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    Time to hang out the bunting i.m.h.o.
    I would save the bunting for once you have done the hard part, all Brexiteers should now be putting all their effort into making a real success of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caeser Cigar View Post
    I would save the bunting for once you have done the hard part, all Brexiteers should now be putting all their effort into making a real success of this.
    Any excuse for a party me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    Any excuse for a party me.
    Why thank you, I would love to come to your party (I like Weissen beer with my hors d'oeuvres).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    Good to see some expertise other than 'economic expertise' informing this thread. What I thought was particularly interesting in the slightly different post you put up on the Future for Britain thread was that apparently Austria had a locus in denying us the go-ahead for Hinkley Point C prior to Brexit. So what possible influence should a land-locked country, the best part of 1000 miles away as the crow flies and 90 degrees at variance to prevailing winds, have on our nuclear power policy? None I'd say and with Brexit we'll be getting away from that sort of undue and unreasonable influence.
    Inconvenient perhaps, but unreasonable? We violated the terms of an international agreement, and several countries subsequently poked evidenced holes in our assumptions regarding safety. I would say that when it comes to nuclear reactors it is for the benefit of everybody on the planet that we do not cut any corners, no matter how small?

    You cannot disregard other countries simply because they do not like what you are doing. Or at least, I do not want that to be the case.

    Tis, of course, just my two cents.
    Richard Lee in his usual goalkeeping stance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotGuy View Post
    Inconvenient perhaps, but unreasonable? We violated the terms of an international agreement, and several countries subsequently poked evidenced holes in our assumptions regarding safety. I would say that when it comes to nuclear reactors it is for the benefit of everybody on the planet that we do not cut any corners, no matter how small?

    You cannot disregard other countries simply because they do not like what you are doing. Or at least, I do not want that to be the case.

    Tis, of course, just my two cents.
    But then, to take your argument to its logical conclusion, you're saying that every other nation, certainly in the northern hemisphere where CO2 emissions get blown around all over the place, should have a locus in deciding on every other nation's nuclear power policy. How could that possibly work? And, objections might not necessarily be on H&S grounds. There could also be all sorts of 'strategic' undercurrents too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caeser Cigar View Post
    Why thank you, I would love to come to your party (I like Weissen beer with my hors d'oeuvres).
    Your place or mine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    Your place or mine?
    If you don't mind yappy yorkies your more than welcome! Be warned they have been trained to "sic em" at the slightest scent of an englishman...

    On second thoughts we should make it your place, my underpass is pretty tight for space and you have said you're a "big guy" previously.

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    Sorry Meister but I can't be doing with it. Provide a bit of content along the same lines as the incoming and I get that back from yours truly which is simply a diatribe against me personally with no other content whatsoever. Nah ... Not impressed ...

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    Sorry, honesty, not a scooby.
    Views and opinions posted are my own unless commenting with respect to forum moderation. Discussion is good, argument and insult is a sign you've lost the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    So your proposal for those that are 'institutionalised' would be to stay 'institutionalised' and do what they're told for ever then?


    Well that depends on whether you think we are 'Brooks' or 'Red'.

    And it's not a question of being told what to do, is it? It's about having things shared out and having economies of scale.
    Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, Sir, and that, Sir, is an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meister View Post


    Sorry, honesty, not a scooby.

    Well, the sun is below the yard-arm...
    Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, Sir, and that, Sir, is an idiot.

  19. #1756
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    Go scrub your poop deck.
    Views and opinions posted are my own unless commenting with respect to forum moderation. Discussion is good, argument and insult is a sign you've lost the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Barry Endean View Post
    Well that depends on whether you think we are 'Brooks' or 'Red'.

    And it's not a question of being told what to do, is it? It's about having things shared out and having economies of scale.
    Wanna cling on to that 'economy of scale' and you'll be doing what you're told to forever. So damned defeatist. I'm Red b.t.w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meister View Post


    Sorry, honesty, not a scooby.
    I believe you do Meister. It's an import from another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    Wanna cling on to that 'economy of scale' and you'll be doing what you're told to forever. So damned defeatist. I'm Red b.t.w.
    Well it's a good job that Andy Trump Dufresne has left us an envelope full of cash and a new life by the ocean, then.

    Oh.
    You will recall that Red was on the point of committing a crime...
    Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, Sir, and that, Sir, is an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelsoOrn View Post
    I believe you do Meister. It's an import from another thread.
    FFS what is this Challenge Anneka?
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