Why Watford Have Collapsed Under Marco Silva

I think it was just an expensive point of principle. Pozzo wanted to make it loud and clear that we're now big enough to only allow people to leave on our own terms.

 

Prodl wasn't first choice at the beginning of the season when he was fit

 

There could be some truth in that, but principles are one thing. I think the main driving force was the fear of a collapse if he went.

The collapse occurred anyway, but that would have been hard to predict. Also when a popular manager goes there is a risk of players following him. How many would have wanted to go in this window? It would have been a disaster.

The owners did exactly the right thing at the time, but it still didn’t work out.

 

Isn't that the case in football generally now? Even Liverpool finally caved in to Coutinho's demands as did Southampton with Van Dijk.

Players, Managers and their agents hold all the power nowadays. All clubs can do is to get the optimum money in these deals. In hindsight we missed a trick here in not accepting Everton's generous offer of £15m for this scrote.

 

I can think of a couple: we were on a good run when this started; they didn't have a replacement in line because they weren't thinking about looking for one 8 games into the season.

 

The sad thing about Silva is that when we appointed him I genuinely thought we’d got somebody in who had just the right combination of talent and inexperience. In other words somebody who could genuinely achieve something and would want to stick around long enough to see it through. I thought he’d inevitably move on of course, but I thought he was young enough that 4 or 5 years with us wouldn’t be out of the question. Back to the drawing board on that one.

 

I and others said at the time of Everton's approach, Gino should boot him out or our season would crash. Nothing hard to predict about that at all.

The only surprise is that the damage to the team would seem to be far greater than feared at that time.

 

Anyone know how many games were played before he was classed as injured on 2nd Sept?

 

Reckon he's a goner. Players clearly took that second half on themselves.

 

not yet. still 10th.

 

How bad do you have to be in this league to not be 10th?

 

Stoke 9th last 3 years. 10th is basically worse than Stoke as a guide. What a horrendous thought.

 

We will find out this time next week.

 

Sorry but he has to go now or we're very likely to go down.

 

Yes, but several players sensed lack of focus and yet several wanted to leave with him. Writer claiming to know mind of everyone makes you doubt this is more than guesswork.

 

Depressing but unsurprising.
What an utter clot,moreover, what an arrogant clot Silva was to even consider leaving after 9 games. 9 GAMES MAN!
The representatives bit is also unspeakably vile. At least in medicine leeches have some value. In football they are just a curse and completely unnecessary. Just hire a half decent lawyer or be arsed to read the contract!
I really hope that is complete an utter claptrap but I suspect it is more truth than not.
Buck up man and do what you're paid handsomely to do.
Then beggar off!

 

That article, besides being somewhat contradictory, doesnt actually add anything we didnt really know or atleast suspect already. As someone else said it could quite easily have been taken from this forum.

I still think far too much is being made of the Silva/Everton situation in regards to the current collapse we find ourself's in. His head being turned is the reason for where we find ourselfs has been repeated so often now that it seems to have become fact. Thats not to say it isnt a contributing factor but I still think that what we are seeing is a culmination of a number of different things that combined have snowballed.

I think the Pozzo model needs looking at as there doesnt appear to be alot of joined up thinking going on. Silva wants a target man so we sign Gray. We need a left back so we hand a contract extension to someone who more often that not is a total liability.

Hopefully with the win against Bristol and the 2nd half turn around today we might be turning a corner. It was looking grim at half time though with the way results else where were and I really wouldnt be surprised to see a new manager in place over the summer.

 

True Dynamo but this puts it out there where it can be seen by fans who don't come here and also where fans of other clubs can see it. If true it sticks a knife into the image of Silva that he would like us to see. Instead it paints a picture of a man who is happy to use us as a nine games stepping stone to bigger things. NINE GAMES for heavens sake.

But just suppose he went to Everton and two months later the Benfica job became available, would he agitate for a move if they indicated they wanted him? How could Everton or any other prospective club expect a show of loyalty from him after this.

 

Silva's arrogance and belief in his own total infallibility has ended up torpedoing a massive hole in the career he prizes so highly.

Club owners after a new manager will see him equally as a great manager and a spoilt self serving egotist.

He'll go in the summer and no one will mind as his clear ability is negated by his head being rammed up his backside with his mind firmly on his wallet.

 

I think Silva has blown any chance of getting a big job now. Not even an Everton sized club would probably consider him. He's now at a level where he has to prove himself or that's it. The path to the big jobs is going to take him a long time to get to.

He has shown a lot of chinks in his armour. He doesn't seem to have grasped how important the defence is. The way he wanted to jump ship so quickly will put off a lot of owners too. That just shows an incredible lack of integrity. You've got to be very good to get a big job. After 8 games he looked like that guy.

But this appalling 15 game run, where we've seen some of the worst displays since our promotion, will not go unnoticed. There will be a lot of doubt over him now. He has to knuckle down and take the Watford job seriously, or else even the Watford job will be beyond him.

 

For 3 seasons in a row we’ve had good starts to the season which has then tailed off. Maybe not just the manager? I also wonder where people expect to be in the league? If I’m correct we have only finished higher than 10th in the top division twice in our entire history.

 

I don't think it's really about where people think we should be in the league, it's more about the level of performance expected on a weekly basis.

10th position is perfectly respectable, good even. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, but it seems like an anomaly. 11 points from 15 games yet we are still 10th. It doesn't make too much sense. Our only saving grace is the entire league, apart from the top 6, are in poor form, which is another absurd reality.

If we watched our team and knew it would give a good 100% performance more often than not and players give their best, then everyone would accept it. But this is not what's happening. Too many are coasting, showing no real ambition or desire and are happy to do Watford a bit of a favour while picking up their nice wage cheque.

This is what I think fans get so irate about.

 

There was a huge amount of hatred towards Silva in the v bar at half time, however you can't help but think he has created his own issues since the Everton approach.

Dyche clearly distanced himself and the fans still love him. Silva dilly dallied non-comitally and the slump in form (caused by the approach or not) has not helped his situation.

Half time was nasty towards him but he has created this himself.

We fans are a fickle bunch however and the salvaged draw has no doubt appeased the masses enough.

 

Hello everyone,

I hope you don't mind an intruder here (I'm portuguese and a Porto supporter), but I couldn't resist it after I read the Times article today. As I was reading it, it immediately reminded me of Sporting and made me think "It's happening again!", although perhaps on a lighter version (Sporting was hardcore).

So please allow me to share a few thoughts with you. To make it clear, I have absolutely no inside information of any kind. It's just opinions from someone who's followed MS very closely (he's been my choice for Porto for years, until last summer). Including the season at Sporting which I think has some similarities with this one, a story that you may find interesting in terms of the current context - I'll get to it soon.

By the way, since I've foolishly decided I'm going to tell you the Sporting story, I know this will be long - I apologize in advance!

First, my take on the Times article.

This article almost convinces me of what I already suspected - there really seems to be some level of tension/conflict between Marco and the Board.

I see this article as being 'commissioned' by someone inside the club (as a follow up to Filippo Giraldi's interview). It's extremely one sided. A few red flags that to me expose it as one sided, as the view from the Board:

1. Okaka - Hughes completely ignores that MS has stated on the record that Okaka's absence from the team has been for disciplinary reasons. For such a 'well informed' article an omission this big seems deliberate to me.

2. This line, "several players privately concede that they sensed Silva’s lack of commitment and lost focus", sounds made up, and is completely inconsistent with everything in MS's career so far. I simply don't buy it.

3. The article completely ignores a very important episode that precedes the Everton saga - Marco's PUBLIC complaint about the last week of the summer transfer market (something he's never done before). It leads us to believe that all troubles begun with Marco's availability to talk to Everton, when in fact they may have begun well before. An impartial journalist should have at least investigated that possibility.

Here's my take on what may have happened (again, just my analysis, nothing more).

It seems to me that when Marco signed for Watford certain things may have been promised to him and then not delivered (in terms of investment and perhaps choice of players).

Remember, he turned down Porto to sign for Watford. (something that here in Portugal was seen as an outrageous choice)

There had to be something special in Watford's proposal for him to turn down Porto. Remember he kept praising the club's ambition after he signed. Remember Slimani recently admitted he was contacted by MS in the summer, and that MS presented a "fantastic project" to him.

So even though the publicly stated goal has always been "to do better than last season", I'm convinced Marco went to Watford with a much bigger ambition. I don't believe the title, but probably fighting for a top 6 position.

Which also explains why he implemented such an attacking model - one that I think is costing Watford a lot of points recently, with a weakened squad.

It's possible that he felt betrayed when the summer market closed (so much that he complained about it publicly). And it's possible that he didn't get any guarantees from the board that what was not done in the summer would be done in January.

And it's possible that this is what led him to supposedly being available to talk to Everton.

Which then may have escalated the situation, to the point of the board possibly not backing him with any signings in January (we'll see).

This is all speculation, of course. But it's speculation based on things that actually happened, and that have been ignored by Hughes. Of course his article would have been much more relevant had he actually talked to all parties involved, not just to the board...

So onto the Sporting story. I find it really amusing (but at the same time frustrating somehow) that such a long and convoluted story, one that went on for months and months, with so many articles, interviews, speeches, became in its international version condensed into "he got sacked for not wearing the official suit". Without anyone questioning it or willing to dig deeper!

I think the frustrating part for me is exactly because I've tried to tell it before and I always struggle to condense it, always looks like it's going to be a book! And here come these people and make it into one sentence!!...

I'll try very hard to stick to the essential.

The controversy in Sporting started in November when the president Bruno de Carvalho (who I would describe personality-wise as a Portuguese Donald Trump) went on Facebook and accused the players of not being worthy of wearing the Sporting shirt, after a bad defeat.

The president expected MS to back him up, but (not wanting to lose the dressing room - not being an idiot) MS didn't.

This led the president to go on Facebook again and this time include (in a veiled way) MS in his criticisms.

This led MS to say to reporters that whenever he had criticisms to his players or to anyone else he always did it face to face.

This started the war!...

In late December one of the president's cronies (an ex-Sporting player) gave a bizarre interview (which became a national joke - except to a fringe of die-hard Bruno de Carvalho fans who to this day believe every word of it) where among other things he accused Marco of essentially being an agent of Sporting's enemies, someone who was there to serve his and someone else's agenda, not Sporting's (he was sued by Marco for defamation and has since been sentenced to pay him 10000€). He also claimed that contrary to what everyone believed the players weren't with him, there were problems in the dressing room.

A ridiculous and poorly conceived attempt at character assassination, with the intent of forcing Marco to resign.

Most people would have resigned. Personally I would have said "I refuse to work with nutjobs" and walked. He stayed though. The risk was tremendous, because Sporting's season up to that point was not bad but wasn't great either. (coincidentally there were defensive problems...)

With the team and coach undermined by their own president (a constant debate during the whole second half of the season was whether the president was rooting for Sporting or for the opponent - which was made even more dramatic by the fact that he always sat on the bench), the potential for a disastrous second half of the season was all there.

And yet, exactly at the epicenter of the crisis (January), Sporting initiated their best run.

At some point reportedly the president gave up on waiting for Marco to resign and decided to sack him after the next bad result (which for a title contender meant the next draw). Sporting kept winning...

Later it was reported that the president gave up on waiting for a draw and decided to sack him anyway. One afternoon there were actually reports of a meeting where he supposedly was sacked. However the reaction of Sporting fans on social media was so big (Sporting was doing great by now, MS was more popular than ever) that the president had to back away, and deny any meeting had happened.

The rest of the season was quieter, it had a 'cold war' atmosphere.

Sporting did great in the second half of the season, won 1 more point than the champions Benfica and ended with a cup win, (still today) their only relevant title in the last 10 years.

To me this January-May period at Sporting was MS's career biggest achievement so far. How he shielded the players from the madness, in a big club with huge pressure, and achieved results.

Perhaps this should be encouraging to you... Although, keep in mind, Sporting didn't have a very strange injury crisis and he did get a new central defender in January who was important in stabilizing the defense.

The season as I said ended in glory with a cup win, which made the president's mission of sacking MS even more awkward (obviously it was going to be extremely unpopular). He came up with a way though - the major coup that was getting Jorge Jesus from Benfica. A story so big that it dwarfed anything else, including MS. (and made most Sporting fans happy)

As for Marco (who no doubt would have left anyway), he was then sacked with just cause. (the intention of just cause was of course to not pay him any compensation, he had 3 more years contract)

And HERE, finally, comes the suit part! Not wearing the official suit on a certain cup game was just one (admittedly the most iconic and the most mocked) of the many many reasons stated for just cause, which came in a very long document (it must be available online somewhere).

The other reasons were equally absurd, and were essentially a rehash of the December accusations (not serving Sporting's interests, not using enough young academy players, etc.)

Eventually they settled on a compensation and Marco was free to sign for Olympiakos. (but by then this wasn't big news anymore, it was all Jorge Jesus)

So there you have it! Believe it or not this was my extremely condensed version!

Again, in a much less dramatic fashion I see some similarities in the current Watford situation. The Times article could be a more sophisticated and less insane version of that December interview at Sporting, and the Giraldi interview reminded me (again in a softer version) of a speech the Sporting president gave in January (one of the episodes I left out), where he announced the new signings for January and then started reading names of young players from the academy... Oh, also there are defensive problems...

All I can say is I hope Marco handles this at least half as well!

I hope something here was useful. Thanks for reading it.

 

That’s fine but in all honesty I find the first part of my post the more concerning which is the fact our seasons seem to have a Groundhog Day feel about them.

 

Can't believe Kieran has another log in.

 

When you think about it there's nothing particularly anomalous about it.

In my experience, particularly on here, people regularly overestimate how long is takes to lose only a few points advantage once a season is underway.

That said you'll no doubt remember I was saying we were safe this time last year. That was based on my view of the whole league and I was right. Even when we literally scored no points in the last 6 games we were still not relegated. But I can't say the same this season. I feel we need to be on about 32pts by March to keep our heads above water.

 

Obrigado companheiro.

The whole truth of this matter is either what you've posted, or Silva has decided to ruin the club because he wasn't allowed to take the massive pay rise with the job at Everton or somewhere in between. Although I'm certain that Silva would have been wooed to us by "something" - the only thing I can think of that would want any manager to come to us are the promises of riches to build his own squad.

 

Did not read but why would a porto supporter know so much about Watford?

 

Thank you for taking the time to post all that, it’s defintely the longest post I’ve read in here but it was very interesting!

It’s seems like MS was probably unfortunately always a bad fit for Watford, and possibly he was promised things that never happened, or indeed had an in impression of how the club would be that turned out to be different. Then when Everton came calling he probably looked at their owner with pots of money and thought that he would have a lot more autonomy there, than he perhaps believed he would at Watford.

The reality is the only thing a Pozzo era Watford manager has complete control over is the team he picks, the formation he plays and the subs he makes.

He may get some say in the players that get brought in, but many will be done without his say so, such as sub standard dross like Zeegeelar.

Is very likely that Andre Gray wasn’t his choice, it sounds like he wanted Slimani but didn’t get him, so he’s got a striker who he didn’t want that to compound matters isn’t performing thus making his job harder, it may explain the bizzare treatment of him lately.

It’s widely reported that the Pozzo ‘model’ is that everything from diet, to training, to recruitment is set up in a specific way that the head coach is easily interchangeable with minimal disruption, in hindsight that sort of set up is not the right one for a strong willed egotistical manager who isn’t afraid to call his owners out in the press.

Saddly I feel that things have gone too far and the relationship is now unsalvageable. The only way I can see a turnaround is if Silva backed 100% in the transfer market, but that seems unlikely at this stage with half the window gone already. You wouldn’t blame the owners for not splashing more money when we should have a number of quality players returning from injury that will be the equivalent of new signings. So all in a resolution seems very unlikely.

 

From reading the Times article, as he states.

 

This. Plus if he did the same to Everton, the media would be outraged.