There is no evidence that what he is doing in the Championship he can do in the Premier League. He was at West Brom and flopped. And I think it was Quique Flores who shipped him out, if he was that good he would've stayed with us.
Or that De Bruyne or Salah could do it in the Premier League when Chelsea got rid... History is littered with rejects coming good. It isn't all about evidence, it is about opinions, about coaches falling out with players, personal issues, mindset, attitude, etc.
Probably what the Lesta fans said when Harry Kane only scored 2 goals in 13 games for them in the Championship. Or what Watford fans would have said about Doucoure had Walter had his way.
A couple of our managers clearly thought he couldn’t cut it but nevertheless Vydra is undoubtedly one of the most technically gifted strikers I’ve ever seen play at the vic and I’ll always feel disappointed he never got the chance to play for us in the premier league .
He was good but I think you might be wearing rose coloured retrospective spectacles. I preferred Iggy in his prime.
What I don’t get is Vydra is only doing for Derby exactly what he’s already done with is over two separate seasons already. He’s with a good championship side and scoring lots of goals, this isn’t new or a suprise, is it? It still doesn’t prove anything though,and wether he’d be any good in the Premier League. My 2 cents worth is he’s a confidence player who sulks if it’s not going his way, it’s very easy for a player like that to perform with an above average Championship team, but altogether different in a struggling Premier League team. Deeney scored 20+ goals in the championship for 3 consecutive seasons, where does that get him now? Hasn’t scored in open play for nearly a year. I don’t think constantly looking back on a player who we sold for a decent profit and is unproven at our current level as the answer to all our problems really does any good, does it?
Well, yep, that does it for me. You win. If anybody has actually said that Vydra has "proven" that he would be any good in the Prem, then I agree with you. If anybody has actually said "he would be the answer to all our problems," then I agree with you. But no one has said either of those things.
Unless you play Vydra off a target man, he's dead weight. You look at how Dwight Gayle is doing for Newcastle, and I think that offers a fairly decent picture of what life would be like for Vydra in the Prem. He's a good player, but he's nowhere near as good as people seem to be making out.
Like you, I have no idea whether that is a true explanation for Okaka's continued absence or not. But it does have a certain logic to it. We have an obvious 'striking' problem. We have one club legend who now seems to be getting slower and slower, doesn't consistently dominate centre-backs and hold the ball up as he once did and despite scoring twenty goals in three successive seasons has not now scored one in open play for nearly a year. Then we have a new bloke who is quite pacy but has an absolutely woeful first touch, is consequently useless at holding the ball up but who does run about a lot thus creating space for others. Neither could be described as anything like 'clinical in front of goal' so 'striker' is now a misnomer for both. Then we have this third bloke whose first touch is very good and is consequently adept at playing others in, is a big unit and can put himself about a bit, has a reasonable turn of pace and good ball control 'in the dribble', is reasonably good in the air and while not being exactly 'clinical' in front of goal is significantly better than the other two. The word 'striker' does fit the bill. So you postulate that the reason this third option (and to me a very obvious one) isn't a real option is because the OWNER wants him out. But we've also heard that there is no interference with the head coach's autonomy in picking the matchday team and its formation. So which is true? If I had a problem that for me had an obvious solution but was told that wasn't an option on 'orders from above' then that would p.ss me off. As would continuing involvement from above with the training staff on a daily basis. Eventually that would p.ss me off so much that I'd consider 'downing tools'. Our last three head coaches have 'downed tools' in their respective ways. Coincidence? Or is there a common factor at play?
Maybe so. But then playing down the role of the head coach wouldn't assist either when having to deal with 'player power'. For Beppe too. And that would also p.ss me off no end.
See! Look what you’ve done! You’ve farted in the lift and gotten out at the first floor leaving everybody else to argue over it! I imagine it’s only a practice run for the scenes on this forum about 6 months after Big Stef finally leaves. Watford still needing a striking option and a poster will innocently mention Okaka. This place will implode.
I'd love to see Vydra back at Watford, would be interesting to see what would **** him up first A) Head Coach playing him out on the wing, or as a lone striker B) Fans hurling abuse at him C) Injury
I stay out of the Vydra/Forestieri and Co debate because their time came and went and has no realistic chance of happening again. That being said, I have absolutely no doubt in my head that Vydra is better than the 3 strikers we currently have and would have done a better job this season - all hypothetical of course. Dare I say he is the exact type of profile striker we should have been looking to sign in January or this summer. If Gino has a sneaky clause in the contract, I wouldn’t be against activating it.
Whilst I don’t agree with your view of Okaka’s ability, you raise some very good questions. I would offer up the likelihood that Gino is not a fan of Okaka and his agent moaning about not getting a game and regularly stating in the press that he’s looking to leave. Can’t imagine that type of behaviour endears him to the owner who would probably rather now just have a transfer fee in the bank than a player who is sulking around the place agitating for a move - last bit is speculative I agree but not too far a stretch of the imagination. The fact that he isn’t even being allowed to train with us, or has asks not to be means that this race is run I’d say. I’d be shocked to see him play for us again. Whether he’s better than Gray or Deeney isn’t really so much of a debate anymore for me. We need everyone pulling in the same direction right now and the indications are that Okaka is going rogue. Could be his fault, could be the clubs...but I want players who want to fight and impress when given a chance, not ones who sulk when they don’t.
I would go one step further. Without doubt individually and collectively our strikers from the Championship winning season are far better than the strikers we have now. If it was possible to swap Okaka, Sinclair and Gray for Vydra, Forestieri and Ighalo, I would do so in a heartbeat. Even the Championship version of Deeney is better than the one we have now. It's very strange that after 3 seasons in the Premier league, we are actually worse off for quality in our strikers than we were as a Championship club.
Hard to argue with that, but realistically it would be hard to have kept all of them around. Iggy and Troy established themselves as starters in the promotion season, and at their age, FF and Vydra probably wanted to play regularly. I think that's something that is often overlooked, we can't just keep an endless surplus of decent players. Not every player dreams of sitting on the bench for Watford
Fessi cried when we sold him. They are both playing in the Championship. I very much doubt either would have wanted to leave Watford for Championship football. But the main point I was making is, we had better players when we were in the Championship, so it's very strange we have not progressed after all the money of 3 Premier league campaigns. It's not so much selling Vydra, Ighalo and Fessi, but replacing them with Okaka, Gray and Sinclair is the problem. Not sure why we did this.
I think you overstate the case for Okaka. Can he run for more than 5 minutes in a match? I've not seen it. Has he turned any games in our favour either as a starter or a sub? I can't remember any. Did he have a good few minutes against Liverpool at the start of the season. Definitely but that was it. Has he done enough to hold down a place in the team even if you feel the other options are limited? Definitely not. I have to agree that Deeney had a below average game on Saturday but if reports are to be believed, and I have no reason to doubt them, Deeney had an ankle injury after the Chelsea game. He was unable to train and was given treatment in the warm up before kick off on Saturday. He could have said he was unfit but he played the full match. There were plenty of chances to put crosses in to him but none reached him. I don't think that was his fault. I recall that he did win a flicked header from a Holebas throw in the second half but no one had gambled behind him and the ball just went aimlessly out of play. I don't think Deeney should have played on Saturday if he was not fit but it goes to show how important the Coach feels he must be that an unfit Deeney was preferred to a fully fit Gray. I can only guess that Deeney wanted to play and if he was unfit the decision should have been taken away from him.
I was disappointed when we shipped out Vydra, Ighalo and Forest but I think you're being a bit disingenious when you say we replaced them with Okaka, Grey and Sinclair. You could argue that we've replaced them with Richarlison, Curillo and Delefoue - which most people would, I think regard as trading up
He's an emotional lad, I think he cries a lot. When presented with the chance to be the main man elsewhere, I doubt he had to be forced. Of all the players, I don't think FF is one we miss. He's done exactly the same with Sheff Wed as he did with us, flatter to deceive. One of the issues we face is that each coach has different ideas. I think QSF made it clear quite quickly that Vydra and FF weren't for him, so the club is left in a dilemma. Keep the players despite not being wanted, or sell them on and keep moving. Ultimately you're right, we haven't brought in enough quality up front, but whether either of them would have made the grade remains to be seen.
You've put some credible time and effort into that and I'm not going to dispute any individual games. However, goalkeepers and defenders get judged on how often they prevent defeat / cost the team points. Saying Troy hasn't cost the team many points is pointless. Id say a striker is there to win points, and even by your own written analysis he's hardly ever done that. The return of goals and assists is poor this season, he's not helped us win enough points.
I disagree. None of those players you mentioned are classed as strikers. I was comparing like for like. Both Carrillo and Deulofeu are on loan anyway, so are not our players.
No, I don't think it's fair to use loan players as a pointer of trading up. Unless we sign them permanently they cannot be seriously counted as our players in this kind of analysis. You could say we have invested in different areas, such as midfield at the expense of the strike force, which would be a far better argument. Not that I want to tell you which points you should be making.
At the end of the season they could both go back to their respective clubs and we won't have these players anymore. Do you not understand how a loan deal works? If we want to sign Carrillo he will cost the club £15m and I doubt we'll take that option. A deal for Deulofeu is not even on the table to sign permanently. When I look at the transfers, we sold Ighalo for £20m, Vydra for £12.5m and Fessi for £4m. We signed Gray for £18.5m, Okaka for £7.5m and Sinclair for £4m. So we made £6.5m profit on this trade, but are significantly worse off in quality. I would say we would have been better off had we left it alone.
Significantly worse off is a bit drastic. I'm sure if you plonked Okaka in the Championship he'd be banging in goals for fun. Ultimtately that's what you are using as a yardstick for quality, ability to score goals in the division below us.
Whenever Gray starts scoring he is dropped. So unfair to bracket him with the others as I keep saying he's not being given sufficient run of games. Whatever people think of him personally and whilst I agree his first touch can be heavy at times he has proved that in open play he can score for us.
It's my opinion, nothing more. But if you told me we're going to sell Okaka for Vydra, Gray for Ighalo and Sinclair for Fessi for a trading loss of £6.5m I think our forward line would be a lot better than it is now.
We'd be in the same situation though, its just substituting 3 average striker for 3 average strikers. We obviously need to focus on finding a new quality striker, but I think they are next to impossible to find. We, and everyone in the division are scrambling to find one. Everton spent £25m on one that already is struggling, and the bloke Southampton bought looks pretty poor as well. Not as easy as people think to score goals in this division
I'm not saying Gray is rubbish, but pound for pound he's probably the worst signing we've made in our history. He's our record signing and has got nowhere near that valuation. We could have signed a player a Gray's ability for a lot less. Had he came in for around £5m, which is probably his true valuation, I would be considering a little more favourably, but he's not good enough. His first touch and finishing are dreadful. He's nowhere near the level a Premier league striker need to be. He's not a youngster, he's been playing the game for a long time. Burnley never used him centrally, and this is something Watford should have taken notice of. I think they thought they could mould him into a central striker, but that idea did not pay off. Why, when Watford are notoriously frugal in their spending, did they see this guy as an £18.5m investment is very strange. He's had chances in the first team. I've seen him get on the end of a through ball many times, only to produce the worst finish imaginable. Those misses at Newcastle, or the one against Swansea, or at Bournemouth, or at Southampton. They are numerous. He doesn't seem to sniff out chances either, now I don't know if that's down to a lack of confidence or he's hiding a little, but it's not good enough. Now he does have some good attributes. He's runs around a lot, makes a nuisance and is aggressive, but these are all the attributes of players you tend to find a lot further down the football pyramid. For the money we paid, we should be seeing a far more accomplished player.
