Watford Fc 3-0 Liverpool - 29/02/2020

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by Ybotcoombes, Feb 23, 2020.

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How much do you hate Liverpool

  1. So much so that if my kid was a Liverpool supporter I would put them up for adoption

    13 vote(s)
    13.5%
  2. More than Luton

    2 vote(s)
    2.1%
  3. A lot but not as much as Luton

    44 vote(s)
    45.8%
  4. Actually I don’t hate anybody and think we should all be nice to each other

    37 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. Simmos

    Simmos First Year Pro

    I really didn't want to turn this into yet another Deeney good/bad post after such a great result and I wouldn't have replied but for your last paragraph. However I have once again taken your bait and feel I have to reply

    Deeney is our captain and regardless of your view of him as a player it is absolutely apparent that the team performs much better with him in the side than when he is out of it. As I have said on countless occasions, Deeney is not a "20 goal a season" player but he adds so much more to the team than just goals. He is not fast like Sarr, he doesn't have the skills of Deulofeu but I feel he gives his all for the club. Do you remember how many games we won when he was out injured at the beginning of the season? Although he had an injury at the start of the season he played on because he thought that was the best for the team.

    Well done in not criticising Deeney over the last few months. That must have been painful for you. When Deeney had this alleged drop in form you can have no idea what was going on in his life outside football. The alleged drop in form was now over two seasons ago under Mazzari. I congratulate you on letting that period go and moving on without harbouring a grudge. You also don't know if during that period he was playing injured, going through other problems or what was happening. As you recognise in your post at #417 the players are human and not machines which you can switch on at 3.00pm on a Saturday (or whenever Sky dictate we play) as you seem to want to infer about Deeney.

    I feel that most Premier League teams would want Deeney in their side regardless of the number of goals he scores or his supposed care less attitude at certain times. Who is the player that is marked out for most treatment by the opposition in our team? Unlike, say, Zaha he takes it without complaining to the media after the match.

    I am not privy to Deeney's salary unlike you seem to be but I would say that we are very lucky in this day and age to have someone who cares about the club, is loyal and gives commitment despite the stick he seems to get from his own fans.

    I agreed with your comment that we have to get behind the players so it aggravates me that you then choose to dig Deeney out about the times he allegedly was out of form. So it seems to me that you want to support the players when they do well but are happy to criticise when they are not performing at the level you deem acceptable. Does that make you an understanding fan who gets behind the team? I choose to support the players through thick and thin in the hope they will improve and if this shows me "merely demonstrating a lack of understanding" then I am happy to agree with you. Please don't make sweeping statements to show understanding to the players when we are winning and then complain about their performances which you deem to be below par. How does that help? Let's just leave it to the coach in charge who sees the players every day in training and then get behind the team he picks.
     
  2. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I don't know why you say you are taking my "bait", I was responding to your "bait" in the first place with an explanation.

    But I will ignore the patronising twaddle (particularly in the 3rd paragraph) that litters your post. But I think your post did display a lack of understanding about when I think criticism is justified or not. Even so, I included a smiley as I couldn't find a "tongue in cheek" emoji. Maybe that is my fault for not explaining why, every time I moaned about him turning up overweight and unfit, for example.

    I am not saying I am right or wrong, it is just my view, but I feel criticism is justified when a player does not demonstrate that he is putting in 100% over any sort of sustained period. When it is the Captain. the player most players would look to for an example of how to behave as a pro footballer, then I think such criticism is even more justified. When the player then admits that he deserved the criticism because he did not get himself fit enough for two seasons running and lost his way on the field, then I think that further justifies the criticism he gets. He has also admit that he is not the "most gifted" of players and his success relies on him being able to put himself a bit. If he is unable to do that, then he is just poor. I also dont like him winding up the opposition, as I think it works against us.

    You are perfectly entitled to applaud his unprofessionalism, if you want, through thick and thin as you say. But personally, in Deeney's case as an example, I prefer to criticise him when he was terrible (effectively through choice), and does not improve the team, but praise him, when he is good and does improve the team.

    But, in more general terms, I think that criticising a players performance is also justified when it falls short of what that footballer is normally capable of. He himself and his coaches should also be critical of his performances, looking for ways to improve and, unfortunately, players that earn more in a week than what most many earn in a year need to accept criticism of a poor performance from football fans. That comes with the territory, although personally I tend not to be openly critical if the is trying his best, but things are just not coming off.

    But, what I don't like is slagging off a player that is new to the role, miles from home and family, maybe speaks a different first language and is having a tough time adjusting, particularly if they are young and inexperienced. Slagging them off as if they are totally useless sends completely the wrong message, and does no good at all. It is bad enough in a normal job if one person starts slagging a new-starter off, imagine how bad it would be for a young lad, with thousands in the crowd having a go, and insults all over social media. That is the time that they need encouragement above all else.

    If you don't understand the difference between slagging off an experienced player who should know better, and slagging off a Masina, or Sarr, or Doucoure (who got hammered after his first proper game against Spurs) in their early days, then yes, I think I am justified in what I said.

    Interesting discussion though. :D
     
  3. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Klopp giving a few of their team on Saturday a run out tonight - as punishment maybe ?
     
  4. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

     
  5. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    He probably feels they need a game against weaker opposition, to try and get their confidence back!
     
  6. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Well seems not..

    Hopefully Liverpool are getting defeats out of their system and get back to normal against Bournemouth on Saturday!

    Impressive result by Newcastle at Championship league leaders.
     
  7. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Imagine if we’re the ones that have broken Liverpool, and they somehow manage to collapse and throw away the title.
     
  8. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Very happy with that as long as they still beat all our relegation rivals.
     
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

  10. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    Was thinking this last night. Saturday made us all heroes. If this is the start of their downfall and they win nothing at the end of the season we will be gods
     
  11. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Squad Player

    Trouble is, if they do that, then they will finish the season on 91 points (if Newcastle count as a relegation rival) which will be enough to clinch the title whatever Man City does.
     
  12. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Haven't done the maths but maybe a draw against NUFC ? With 5 NUFC players sent off and 5 mortally injured ?
     
  13. Simmos

    Simmos First Year Pro

    I also enjoy the banter with you as we are clearly from opposite viewpoints on so many things but usually we can hold a discussion without it descending into bitter personal attacks. I therefore apologise if you felt I was patronising towards you when I was actually attempting sarcasm badly which didn't work.

    I don't mind criticism of the players if it is justified and there are occasions when some players don't seem to be trying (Mr Success I am talking about you) but we have become the fans we despised in the Championship as spoilt self entitled brats who demand victories in every game. I want us to win every match but despite the players best efforts it won't happen. The margins between winning and losing have been very small but when we lose the negativity towards certain players and most especially Deeney is toxic. Deeney may not look the part if he fails to win a header or his knock down doesn't fall to one of our players but that isn't him not trying. We have to give some credit to the opposition but the number of times I have seen comments
    • that he is slow (which he is and never had pace),
    • can't score 20 goals a season (which I agree but that isn't his whole value to the team),
    • doesn't win many headers (despite stats that suggest otherwise)
    • wins headers which go nowhere (well maybe the other players need to support him a bit better)
    • puts himself about too much (that is how he wins possession for the team)
    • argues with the refs too much (he is our captain and in theory is the person who should be doing exactly that for his teammates)
    • doesn't get in the box enough (he is leading the line linking play so he can't be everywhere)
    • gets involved in unnecessary disputes (that's him showing passion and caring)
    • being disinterested (not one I have noticed but sometimes he is marked out of a game)
    These are just a few of the gripes and there are many more which have become too boring to repeat. Personally I think he tries very hard for the club even when he does have an off day which as a human being everyone suffers from time to time. I believe Deeney will continue to work hard for the team and the club despite the unwarranted abuse. I will continue to support Deeney and will be grateful for what he has done for the club. I don't think he deserves the disrespect he receives.

    Could I also remind you that during the period when you felt he was overweight and not putting in the effort he raised £40,000 for a school in the local area (that my son attends). I believe that alone shows he cares about the club and the wider community.

    We won't agree but I respect your right to criticise Deeney even if I feel it is wrong and I hope I have explained why I feel your view shows a lack of understanding of his contribution to the team and club.
     
  14. TBF TD did let himself go a couple of seasons back and didn't deserve to be anywhere near the side. And as a #9 he is slow. And but for Sarr we'd be toothless up front.
     
  15. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    He is worth his place in the side right now, because he is playing quite well. So no criticism from me.

    For so many reasons, from the way he plays, to his position as experienced captain, his attitude counts more than most, so when he is falling short in his attitude he deserves criticism.

    That is a world away than slating or writing off new signings when they are trying to settle in, sometimes when they have literally only played a few minutes. That was my point.
     
  16. Simmos

    Simmos First Year Pro

    As I said I don't think we are going to agree but I do understand the point you are making. I think if we continue this discussion we are only going to go round in circles making the same respective arguments. Lets just agree that it was a great result on Saturday and hope for another this weekend.
     
  17. Simmos

    Simmos First Year Pro

    If Deeney let himself go two seasons ago and is slow (which I agree but he has never had any pace), why is he so respected by other clubs who would like him in their team? Deeney is far better when played in a two up front alongside a Vydra or Ighalo but I would say we are toothless up front at the moment without Sarr because Deeney finds it hard to play the lone striker role. However even though asked to play in an unfavoured role I hope you agree he has done pretty well since returning from injury.
     
  18. No idea. I wouldn't buy TD for my team. Agree he is better in a 2, but a 442 would compromise our midfield and leave us overloaded.
    Pearson has found a way to make a 4231 work with TD as a lone striker, but only really because Doucs, Sarr, Del are high energy players who can cover ground and get close for knock downs and 2nd balls off him.
    I'm not anti TD, he has done bucket loads for this club and is a decent player, but he misses pace and that's important in the prem. If he had it he'd be as near a complete striker as we could afford. But then he'd probably be playing for Spuds or Arsenal.
     
    PowerJugs and Happy bunny like this.
  19. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I think that’s the point. He has no pace but that’s not an issue if he has pace around him and he can hold the ball, bring others into play and nick the odd goal himself.
     
    Simmos and Happy bunny like this.
  20. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Deeney isn't that fast, but he is also not mobile enough and rarely (considering he plays every game) makes himself useful from crosses as, instead of looking for space or even dragging defenders with him to create space for others, he just stands next to the defenders who are normally better in the air than him.

    He is just too static, and that means that we rarely see him get a good chance from a cross or create a chance for anyone else. As we play wide players (who aren't that capable of putting in a cross with pin-point accuracy) it is a real waste of opportunity from crosses and set-pieces.

    I read somewhere that we have had over 450 crosses into the area this season. Can we remember Troy getting on the end of more than one or two?

    He is worth his place in the side at the moment, but he could be so much better, in my opinion.
     
    PowerJugs likes this.
  21. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    Bumped up to move last year's cup final thread away from the top.
     
  22. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    I had to take my wife to Watford General today, it was the first time I'd been in Vicarage Road since the Liverpool game, it was a bit weird walking past when the GT turnstiles would be thinking that I haven't been here for nearly 6 months.
     
  23. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    If you look up the word blip in the English dictionary, there's a link to this thread.
     

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