Both those clubs are much bigger than us both in terms of support and historically. I would go as far to say that we are probably the smallest club in the Premier League, bar Bournemouth.
You always know that someone is being unreasonable and illogical when all they can do to justify their stance is state that it is their opinion, as if that gives it any sort of credibility.
I don't disagree Soton/WBA are larger clubs, but we can definitely compete with them. The others are completely out of our league, as evidenced by the fact the lowest placed team of that group (Arsenal) are 14 points ahead of us with two games in hand. That was more the thrust of what I was saying: we're basically third at present in the minileague of non-elite clubs, which is pretty bloody good.
Well if you and Arakel are right, then we may as well not bother playing the actual football match and just base the results on which club is biggest.
Sorry, what have I attributed to you that you have not said or implied over the last four months? Or are you invoking the HB1 "I cannot be held responsible for my previous comments" protocol?
Comfortably stayed up and beat United, Arsenal and Everton along the way. Had a horrible patch due to a ridiculous injury list and whilst the football was carp for a while, Walter has shown that he can get the team to play decent football and I'm quite hopeful for next season. The fact that he said he wants to keep playing this formation so the players learn for next season tells me that he's in no doubt about his future.
I'm not invoking anything, I am just asking you to quote what you are arguing with. Why on earth quote a post I made yesterday afternoon, if you are talking about 4 months ago? For the sake of the forum, just make it easier to respond. Other posters don't know what is in your mind since December. This is pathetic.
Like Kelso said, despite a bit of ancient history, I'd say we are bigger than Burnley now, and Swansea, were just behind Palace and certainly historically bigger than Hull.
Yes you can make an argument for those as well. We will always be a small club but I think we are proving you can be small and compete with the big boys (in these days of ludicrous TV money) if you are a well run club.
I agree with you in some respects. If our existing squad played to its full potential every week we could be a bit higher. I doubt you would argue though that our squad is as strong as the top seven this year - which means 8th is probably where we could max out. We are one win away from that, which means we are not far from where we might attain. However no squad plays always to its maximum potential. If they did they would be Champions - last year Leicester over achieved massively - a rare example of a "lesser" squad that just had everything going for it in one year. I cannot believe you use the "we all have only 11 players on the pitch argument" Do you want to follow that to its logical conclusion? 11 great internationals are expected to beat 11 lesser players - especially over a season not one game.
Out of interest, how much higher up the table do you think we should be? Theres a 17 point gap between us and 7th if Arsenal win tonight. True we havent played well for parts of this season, but even if we had played alot better and hadnt had all the injuries to our creative/wide players is this team good enough to have won another 6 games and be in a position to challange for europe? Im not sure it is yet. We're currently in the top half of the table and potentially could finish as high as 8th depending on the run of results. Given the injuries we've had thats pretty good for only our second season. You said in an earlier post that 10th was an underachievement with this squad, would finishing 8th be any different?
Actually, I don't think I could have said it any clearer. I agreed that we could do better, but qualified that the injuries were a serious issue, which you chose not to do whilst criticising the club for poor performances, and then suggested you take the opportunity to express your opinion at the next "At Our Place" forum, and then declared the response I fully believe you would have received. You would not dismiss the team's performances to a member of the Club without acknowledging the injuries, and you would not argue with them if they put it to you that the said injuries had adversly affected the season - it can be easily arranged for you to do so, or it can be done on your behalf. If we had done even marginally better this season, we'd be challenging Arsenal for seventh. By all means, say that you are disappointed, but don't criticise everyone else for thinking that we have done OK by getting through a tough, injury ridden season with our skins intact, a number of reasonable scalps, and still challenging for anything up to ninth in the table at this stage of the season. And if you do insist on criticising the rest of us, be man enough to take it when you get criticised in return, instead of whinging that we're all a bunch of puzzies. You have constantly decried virtually everyone else on the forum for not expecting the standards you set for yourself (which are ludicrously ridiculous), so don't be surprised if a few of us get a bit hacked of with your constant tirade.
Sting, I have made my position quite clear. I feel that the players on the pitch have not done themselves justice consistently enough. Whether or not that is down to themselves, or the coach, is up for debate, but as I have already said I reckon we have only had very good games 6 to 9 times so far. We should aim to do better. On the whoscored website we are 4th worse in the division for passing, giving it away, etc. The points won do not paint the only picture worth looking at. The funny thing is, I would be sure that coaching staff and players will know that they are better than they have been producing. They wont accept that they can only expect to be a mediocre mid-table side as is often said on here. The 11 players on the pitch argument was merely used to illustrate my point that they the size of the club does not mean that the players should try harder or do the basic that much better. The fact is, we have 40 points out of a possible 96, won 11 out of 32 games and only 4 clubs have a worse goal difference, only 4 clubs have scored less goals and only 6 have conceded less goals. I think our points total is higher than our performances deserve, but lower than we are capable of. We lost heavily to Spurs twice, but our performances were miles apart. In the first we were woeful from start to finish, in the second, we gave somewhere near our best for much of the game, but were just beaten by a better side. I didn't criticise us at all after the second game. I understand that we can only do so much.
Oh damn, I think its at mine. I'll have to start tidying up the place... (translate to haven't got a clue)
I refer to the stats I gave Sting. The 5th worse goals scored, the 5th worse goal difference, the 7th worse defence, the 4th worse performance stats as far as the WhoScored website is concerned. I think we are potentially better than that. It is not "ludicrously ridiculous" to expect that, neither is it a sense of entitlement. My "constant tirade" only happens because I am constantly required to correct posters like you misinterpret what I say so you can have a go. For instance, I have never said that the injuries have not affected our results. But what I have said is that injuries should not stop our on-field players from trying their best and putting in a shift, passing the ball without giving it away, getting our corners past the first defender, turning our back on shots, miss-controlling, etc, etc. They are nearly all experienced, many are Internationals and most are highly paid. They should still perform somewhere near their best. Injuries do not stop Deeney from turning up fit from the start of the season, nor should injuries prevent Walter from picking his best players like Doucoure. That is entirely different to saying that injuries have not affected results. I honestly dont know how anyone can argue with what I have said, other than about the actual ability of the players, as that is based on the standards we set ourselves and is highly subjective. But then if we pay £millions for players then I would have thought that getting a corner past the first defender shouldn't be too difficult. My school pals used to manage that with big heavy waterlogged footballs when I was about 14.
Update: looks like there's not another one this season. But anyone peed off with the clubs dreadful performance this season could send an open email to the club....
WhoScored does not decide where you are in the league, and to expect us to be challenging for Europe this season with a fully fit team would be an heroic enough goal, but to expect us to outright qualify (a marginal improvement could achieve that) with the injuries we have had is, am sorry, ludicrously ridiculous. It is fair of you to say you don't like to style, but to say we should be doing significantly better, with the injuries we have had, is also ludicrously ridiculous. No, it happens because you invite people to suffer your insult, that they have lower standards than yourself, without reply (which, whether it is your intention or not, you express in practically every post), because they are satisfied with a season in which we have predominantly been top half of the table, constantly mid table, yet ravaged by the most ridiculously ludicrous injury crisis you could never imagine; that ain't going to happen. If you had only expressed your opinion, without expressing your contempt for your club and your fellow fans, your ride would have been far easier, and we wouldn't be doing this now. And that is where I have pointed out the difference between being a top team, who rely on technical ability to achieve (which we are attempting to become at the moment), and an elevated Championship team, who rely on battling and effort. You have never chosen to respond to such reasonable points, but instead you insult everyone who does not agree with you with the usual insult, and in an air of entitlement that would embarrass a Liverpool fan: all whilst you declare we should play like a Championship side with players not technically good enough to survive in the prem. We are a technical team, not a battling team. We have moved on from the Championship, and in the prem, technical ability gets you further than battling spirit. You are going to have to get used to that. It is not a virtue to harken back to a style that will see us mid table or relegation fodder until we inevitably go down. There, case in point. To paraphrase: "You can't argue with me and be reasonable, injuries are no excuse, anyone who disagrees has low standards". Why would anyone be a bit miffed with that? Yet, as above, you are clearly wishing for the standards of a Championship team waiting for relegation. That is why people are challenging you. Edit: I am guessing that I have been so unreasonable now that you are going to take a moral stance and not reply to this post. That would be a pity.
What is this insult? Let's have the actual words, because your paraphrasing is way out. What is the insult, and who to? When I see it, maybe I'll apologise.
Well I did mention it a number of times: "other than about the actual ability of the players, as that is based on the standards we set ourselves" Which, as I thought I said clearly, is you telling the rest of us that you have higher standards than anyone who disagrees with you (oh yes it is). Perhaps you genuinely don't see it, but it is there.
= "You can't argue with me and be reasonable" = "injuries are (therefore) no excuse" as you do not mention them after the phrase "other than" = "anyone who disagrees has low standards" which is what you have been saying for some time now. You asked. Do you understand now? You do not have to reply of course.
I think you are getting a bit paranoid. We all set ourselves targets, standards and goals in our lives. In this particular matter - kicking a bit of plastic around a grassy field, I set the acceptable standards higher than you choose to. You admit that. Who gives a toss, this is just a football forum and we all support the same side. Pointing out that difference is not in insult, it is just a fact. People discuss judgements like this all the time, in their family, in their jobs and in their social lives and leisure interests, like football. I am sure you will choose higher standards in other matters, than me. So what, if we all set identical standards, then the world just couldn't function as we would all want the same thing, and there would be no one left to provide it. Take a breath, 424, and calm down.
ZZ, stop this fretting and worrying. You have to calm down and not take things so seriously man. I can't believe you are getting so stressed about all this. It is only a game mate, and we're all Watford fans. Just because you representative the things we take the micky out of other team's fans for, with the entitlement and high expectation, it is no reason for you to get so down about it. Really it is OK to have your opinion, just don't feel you have to tell everyone else they have lower standards than you, when they clearly have a far higher expectation of what this club can become, and are not stuck thinking they're supporting a Championship Club when their team is actually in the top half of the Premier League. Chill man.
I went back as far as page 10 and don't think I read a single post relevant to the match against Swansea. Can the Mods please start a Sub Heading just for Bickering, and leave the matchday one for discussion about the match?
Agreed, it's getting ridiculous how every match thread is hijacked by the usual muppets, it's most likely putting people off from posting.
