Tottenham Hotspur 1-1 Watford FC - 19/10/2019

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by Smudger, Oct 15, 2019.

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What will be the score

Poll closed Oct 19, 2019.
  1. Tottenham by four or more

    23 vote(s)
    26.1%
  2. Tottenham by three

    13 vote(s)
    14.8%
  3. Tottenham by two

    20 vote(s)
    22.7%
  4. Tottenham by one

    5 vote(s)
    5.7%
  5. No score draw

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  6. Score draw

    6 vote(s)
    6.8%
  7. Watford by one

    8 vote(s)
    9.1%
  8. Watford by two

    4 vote(s)
    4.5%
  9. Watford by three

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  10. Watford by four

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  11. Lets call the whole thing off

    3 vote(s)
    3.4%
  12. The tenth circle of Hell is watching Watford FC

    3 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    'The decision not to award Watford a penalty yesterday was a disgrace'. Guess the source of the quote.
     
  2. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    hb1?
     
  3. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    Correct. Hb1 aka Robbie Savage.
     
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I'm in your head...….I'm flattered. A word to the wise...….this obsession leads to erotic dreams.
     
  5. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Time for a spot of fishing?
     
  6. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  7. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    wfc4ever likes this.
  8. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I would say we have looked more like winning games playing more defensive than we did playing more attacking. We are still creating chances and very good ones as well. I don’t see how changing it will help. The forward players at Bournemouth will tear us a new one if we open up as they did last season. Stick to what is working better than anything else we’ve tried
     
    dynamo380 likes this.
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Personally I think playing the way we are reduces our chances of winning, but will more likely keep us in games for longer, giving the illusion we might win.

    I’m not saying will not win games with a defensive formation, because of course we can, but we will not win as many as 11 of the remaining 29 games playing that way IMO. 11 wins is the target we must achieve to stay up.

    We are already playing catch up. If we beat Bournemouth it will have very little impact. We need two back-to-back wins for it to mean anything tangible.

    If we win on Saturday, it will give us a modicum if hope, but nothing more. We will still be bottom.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  10. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    We’ve looked like winning the last two over every other game this season
     
    PowerJugs likes this.
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Looks are deceiving. That’s the problem. It gives false hope.

    We looked like beating Newcastle. We looked like beating Arsenal, we looked like beating West Ham. We even looked like beating Brighton had chances been taken at the key moments.

    The list is long and nothing changes, yet hope springs eternal it seems.

    Unless we start winning games, no one can say this approach is working.
     
  12. Steel City Gold

    Steel City Gold First Year Pro

    Of all the tosh you have typed, this post is definitely straight into the Top 3...
     
  13. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I’m pleased about that.
     
  14. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    We didn’t look like beating Brighton or West Ham. We looked like conceding at any given moment. We were terrible at Newcastle and although they got a dodgy goal we created nothing. Arsenal we were decent but defensively we were poor, hence we were two down. I would say we were better positioned to win the last two than any others. They all history now though and next Saturday is all that matters now. Bournemouth’s strength is going forward and if we can stop that part of the game we will have a decent chance
     
  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Hughes had a golden chance to make it 2-1 against West Ham. Gray had a wonderful chance to equalise plus the non-penalty for handball. Both these incidents came with the score at 0-1 and we were on the ascendancy.
    We would have beaten Newcastle had it not been for the referee awarding an invalid goal.
    We had three glorious chances to score a winning goal against Arsenal.

    So it’s not true to say we did not have chances to win these games. We certainly did.
     
    Jumbolina and Espadrilles like this.
  16. Steel City Gold

    Steel City Gold First Year Pro

    A depressing read Maninblack, regarding the Jewish abuse especially.

    It's down to all of us to face ANY of these racist, bigoted c.unts down at the moment it's happening. From what I've read, the allegations against both Yeovil and Bristol City 'fans' involved a 'handful of supporters...'

    Use your phones. Video the b.astards. Root them out.
     
  17. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Before the last two games we pretty much conceded at least two goals per game in every. You will not win many games or indeed avoid relegation by letting in two goals per game.

    We’ve almost just gone three hours without conceding a goal, you will win more than enough games to stay up by conceding that irregularly.
     
    Forzainglese likes this.
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Indeed. Spurning chances will not be fixed by shopping 3 at the back every game.



    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
     
    dynamo380 and domthehornet like this.
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    This is where I take a different view. Reducing goals conceded will potentially reduce defeats, but not necessarily increase wins. If you were to say "create the perfect system for drawing games", then Flores would be your man. But we need to win games now. We have to attack more, in order to create the multitude of chances our team needs to win games. If we're only creating 2 or 3 chances per game, the most we will ever score is 1 goal but probably zero. We need to create 5 or 6 great chances before we score twice (on average). Score twice and you're in the zone for winning games.

    Everyone is living in hope that our players will learn how to take chances, but they are not capable of doing this. Even against Spurs, good situations were created, but it's the wrong execution 9 times out of 10. We pass when we should shoot and vice-versa. I don't think I've ever seen a side that shanks it's shots as much as Watford. We rarely hit the ball cleanly. We basically panic when we get goal scoring opportunities.

    Until we become clinical in taking chances, we need a system that will give us as many scoring chances as possible. Scoring goals gives you wins. Clean sheets ensures you do not lose....that's the difference.
     
  20. Carpster

    Carpster Reservist

    Good points made. I would much rather see the Watford team who murdered Arsenal in the second half every week. But it ain't going to happen. Its going to be a very boring, negative few months.
     
  21. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    10 wins to stay up from the remaining 29 games ? With the draws would give us a points total in the high 30s and possibly be enough for safety. But winning more than a third of our remaining games ? We've tightened up defensively but I can't see where those wins will come from which is why that Foster **** up was so so so disappointing.
     
    Jumbolina likes this.
  22. Aberystwyth_Hornet

    Aberystwyth_Hornet Squad Player

    We've created the 6th most amount of chances, but only scored 5. There is the problem.

    A win on Saturday would have given us a real confidence boost which I think is what the players desperately need.

    I still don't believe we're one of the 3rd worst teams but that doesn't mean we won't go down if we don't fight for every point.
     
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I agree. This is why I think we will not be able to stay up unless something unexpected happens.

    We’ve only won 2 games since 3rd March and that was against the two sides that ended up going down. The last current Premier league side we beat was Leicester City at home.

    To think we’ll win at least 10 of our remaining 29 is extremely optimistic.

    Having said that we should not abandon all hope, but we have to go on a winning run now. If we do manage to beat Bournemouth and Chelsea at home, then everything changes. But right now that’s the type of thing we have to do. Because of the screw ups against Brighton, Newcastle and Sheff Utd, we have to beat teams like Chelsea to get us back on track.

    Incredibly, if we do win the next two, we’ll have exactly the same return of points from corresponding fixtures as last season.
     
  24. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It is optimistic, but not really much more that Quique can do at the moment. He is following the classic pattern for turning a season around, stop conceding, stop losing first. He is doing this without completely parking the bus. We could well have won the last two games.

    To stay up we need to play from here like a good mid table side. Not beyond us... yet.
     
    wfcmoog and Espadrilles like this.
  25. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Hughes did indeed have a chance to put us 2-1 up but we were so bad defensively I don't believe we would have won the game. We did very little at Newcastle but they are equally poor and I expect them to be in the bottom 5 come the end of the season. It was probably the only game we haven't looked like conceding but we also very rarely looked like scoring. Yes we had chances to beat Arsenal but being 2-0 vastly reduces your chances of winning a game. We had more chances of winning the last game two games because we didn't look like conceding every 2 minutes. In fact, over the last two games I don't think we've looked like letting a goal in. When we don't have natural goalscorers that can get you 15-20 goals a season we have to be defensively sound. We will create more chances if we have a more attacking set up but we will also concede a lot more and very probably more than we will score. We simply don't score enough to be an attacking side currently. It may be a bit dull but if dull gets us some points over the next few games then I'm all for it.
     
  26. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Saturday's was a fantastic performance. A win would have instilled real belief
     
  27. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Obviously the most maddening thing is if you consider the Newcastle and now Spurs games, there's every possibility that we could end up being relegated by 4 points come the end of the season, or even 3, or just the most stonewall 2, and what do we do then, go full Sheff Utd and sue VAR?

    The best hope we have is that the injustice of Saturday, coupled with the improved performance and attitudes, spurs on the players to keep working and fighting and playing intelligently, even more so, leading us to go on the kind of run that might see us in contention for safety. We need points desperately, but it's also true that it's the ultimate case of a marathon rather than a sprint, and if we have a genuine newfound solidity to add to a rediscovered team spirit then that might just be the way we do it over the long term.

    Unexpected things always happen, and one of the worst things about this season so far is that those unexpected things have been pretty universally negative for/working against us. At some point, you'd have to hope that will find a way to correct itself, even just on the balance of probability.
     
  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I don't have a problem with the Flores defensive system in away games, or even in a few select home games against high flying opposition, but to use 5 at the back and a DMF against Sheffield United at home was ridiculous. If we cannot attack a team like Sheff Utd at home then who can we do it against? You have to pick the best formation to maximise your chances of winning. All he did against SU was to try and keep a clean sheet, a win seemed secondary.

    I don't think he should be using 5 at the back in every match. Home games we have to attack more and try to win. We're at the bottom of the table with no wins. You have to be brave and take risks in order to get out of the mess we're in. 0-0 draws will not help.
     
  29. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    You are, of course, entitled to your view, but for me, it seems a little odd to reach a conclusion that the answer to our problems is to take more risks and be more open in the pursuit of goals.

    We were lining up with 4-5 attack minded players for most of the dismal run which has seen us slumped to the position we are in now. We had a record number of shots vs Arsenal and managed only 2 goals, and were, at times, delightful to watch in the attacking 3rd vs West Ham, but utterly open at the back, leaving us totally exposed, every time they went forwards.

    I agree that it's less pretty to watch for the neutral, but I'd much rather see us labour and frustrate to a draw or nick a win, than play irresistible stuff in the opposition half, miss loads of chances, but concede 2 or 3 and lose.

    I think that the evidence for the need for the more defensive approach is all in the terrible run we witnessed from April to the Sheff Utd game. OK, we haven't seen us turn into world beaters with 5 at the back, but we are giving ourselves a chance in all games, which we simply did not have when we our defensive line was as watertight as a sieve.

    I think that if we survive the drop and Quique maintains the negative playing style, I will be right with you. I hated seeing us safe in that first Prem season, but still refusing to even try to score goals at times, but for now, with the current circumstances, I completely believe that we are doing the right thing for the tools we have available.

    You've argued your point and I respect that, but I just disagree to such a degree that I struggle to see how you draw the conclusion that having more shots per game, at the expense of reopening our defence to be completely ass raped will do anything other than see us hit another extended losing streak, with some heavy, demoralising losses on the way, to boot.
     
    Chumlax, Knight GT and Since63 like this.
  30. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    If we played one of the teams near the bottom in a few weeks and still failed to have a go then I would agree with you but I stand by the point that we needed to get used to playing a system that stopped the avalanche of goals we were conceding. We've done that and I expect us to remain with that system for a few more weeks while we try to accumulate some points. we were desperately unlucky not to win the last two games and a big part of looking like winning games is being tight at the back.
    I'm not sure we are at the "take risks" point. We've had enough chances in the last two games to win so don't see it changing. A win against Bournemouth and we could be 1 point from 17th. I would say that means we are not at the desperation point yet. Bournemouth and the whole of November are massive to our hopes of staying up and for me, playing the formation we are currently playing gives us the best chance of picking up a decent total. The only possible game that I would possibly change for would be Burnley but everybody else will attack us
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  31. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Interesting watching Ref Watch. As predicted Dermott Gallagher says the handball was a correct call. He said it hits his chest and not his shoulder...….what a joker that guy really is. The two pundits next to him put him right, and both said it's clearly an arm and is therefore handball. Steven Warnock even said you could tell Ali thought it would be disallowed, as his celebration was subdued. Goal should not have stood. Gallagher clarified handball is if the ball strikes the arm from the seam (meaning from beyond the armpit). It clearly hit Ali's upper bicep.

    With the Deulofeu penalty, even Gallagher could not squirm his way out of it. He said it was a clear penalty, and it will probably be used as a test case when the referees next have their next meeting (to go with the other test case he said they'd use after the Newcastle goal against us). Steven Warnock, who was one of the pundits, said that was embarrassing not to have given that. Even Gallagher admitted he's not spoken to anyone who thought that was not a penalty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    wfc4ever likes this.
  32. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    One thing is for certain - didn't hit his chest otherwise it would have bounced off into a different direction .
     
    Davidmsawyer likes this.
  33. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Was it Jeremy Corbyn?
     
  34. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Just watched MOTD on iPlayer - Shearer thought it was handball, I was on the fence but having looked at it I'm convinced it was handball.

    As for the penalty, again agree with Shearer - it was embarrasing.
     
    dynamo380 likes this.
  35. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Here is the tool, know as Dermot Gallagher, trying to explain the handball.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1186247303910379526

    It's clear, all these guys stick together, no matter what, even if they are retired. It's part of their DNA.

    It's a shame the clip ended where it did, as the other two told him it was a handball, and was quite clearly the bicep, not chest, not shoulder, but arm....so handball.
     
    Bwood_Horn likes this.

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