Tottenham FC Vs Watford FC - 30/04/2018

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by Steel City Gold, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. Jimthehornet

    Jimthehornet Academy Graduate

    After last night's game nothing has really become any clearer. It only showed what we knew before.

    Andre Gray and Holebas are both awful and need to be shown the door ASAP.

    It may not have been the manager that needed changing in the first place, but I'm willing to admit that I called for Silva to go and I think the players and club are better for it. Gracia seems to be tactically adept, although not totally without blame (Liverpool comes to mind)

    There are four things that need to happen for WFC to have a good season next year.

    Gracia must stay. There isn't any point in changing yet again to another unheard of manager. Stability will be more likely to bring us success. People calling for him to go forget that Silva showed that managers can have good and bad runs. He has improved us, I think we need better players and that brings me on to...

    New players. We need new defenders and a clinical striker. I think Deeney is still important, he provides brilliant hold up play and communication, and is a focal point for the team. Saying that, it's clear that we need someone to tap in the chances he creates. We should keep GD if possible and offload some dead weight from our squad.

    The team need to concentrate on the basics. Sloppy passing, woeful finishing and defensive errors are the problem. There is talent and good tactics but without the basics, it's pointless. Seeing out the game comes under this too.

    Lastly, this season needs to end and be forgotten. At the moment, the players have nothing to play for, no chance of top ten, no threat of relegation. It can't hang over us.

    If the above are sorted I think the next season will be a cracker.
     
  2. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    Have we stopped paying them all thousands and thousands of pounds a week? When did that happen??

    This idea that PL players have ' nothing to play for' is utter bollox and is the kind of sickening remark that makes me believe the person that made it is a complete tool.
     
    Chumlax likes this.
  3. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    I quite enjoyed the game last night and thought the view from our seats in row 34 was very good=compared to what I saw at Huddersfield it was much better-I thought we were worth a draw but the same failings were evident so we came up short.
    Of course Gray should have scored but we are never going to have someone who scores every chance and in the two one on ones I have seen him miss this season he has never had another chance in the game to remedy that, I thought Capoue was very good as was Hughes until he tired and Doucoure only gave it away a few times,
    I am undecided about the manager because there is a mistake or two in the defence almost every game but that started before he arrived and in my mind started at Chelsea away
    Roll on Saturday - I do think the players know there must be a committed performance from the get go and given we must score 3 goals to guarantee at least a point I hope for a rousing end of season game to redress the recent results which do not reflect that we have been good ( bar Huddersfield) without getting the deserved return
     
  4. Reggy

    Reggy Academy Graduate

    No threat of relegation? Pretty sure if we lose on Saturday we’ll be in more trouble than you’re giving credit for.
     
  5. LPC213

    LPC213 Reservist

    Why are people slating Holebas for not marking Trippier? Since when do full backs mark eachother?

    Mariappa was just as narrow which suggests it was a tactical thing. Except he got help from Kiko.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  6. V Crabro

    V Crabro Reservist

    Alternatively - get a better result than Southampton on Saturday and we are safe.....
     
  7. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Finally someone else here understands football. God bless you.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  8. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    It's the job of the winger to back track and cover an attacking wingback not the full back, therefore it is not Holebas you should be blaming for Trippier's freedom of the pitch is it :rolleyes:
     
    Hulk Hoban likes this.
  9. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    It is when the opposing winger was so far tucked in and Trippier pushing up. Richarlison was guilty of following the opposing winger on the inside whereas Holebas stood there like a Tory minister doing a power pose rather than attempting any blocks
     
  10. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Agree with a lot of this except Deeney. In my view he doesn’t provide brilliant hold up play at all. Often he is completely dominated by big centre halves. He also doesn’t create many chances either. I think we are far better without him.

    Also I’ve seen a few people talk of “unknown” managers. QSF, Mazzari and Silva were high profile for a club our size. Unless the point being made is that we can’t attract this level of name any more because we sack everyone?
     
  11. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    Yes I totally agree, and the exciting thing come August (hopefully) will be that it will feel as if we are getting two new signings with Chalobah and Cleverley being back.

    The point I was trying to make though was to dispel the myth that Gracia inherited a squad totally inferior to the one that started the season. While there’s no doubt the loss of Chalobah has been huge, his injury occurred quite early in the campaign. During our good start when we amassed 21 points in 13 matches, we didn’t have Deulofeu and we’d barely seen Hughes. Defensively we didn’t have Cathcart. So while Gracia has been short of two excel,ent players, he’s been able to call on a few new ones too.
     
  12. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    But Cthulu’s point was that nobody could get the current available squad playing well, which seems to me to be a totally defeatist view and if true, renders all our matches lately totally meaningless lol.

    I was just pointing out that at times this season our squad has been playing well and racking up the points. But yes of course at any one given time, players are out injured or lacking form, and if you compare the squad available on any two given dates during a season there will always be discrepancies.

    There seems to be this prevailing view about Gracia on here. When we win, he’s a genius. When we don’t win (as sadly seems more the norm these days) it’s not his fault.
     
  13. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think people are just taking the concept of the head coach being easily replaceable to infer he has has little impact. It's like a whole new level! Plus I think there's a lot of realisation that he's got a pretty rubbish hand to deal with. I'm sure expectation for him will be higher after a pre-season, if he gets one. The two positions you put forward aren't even contradictory. When we win he's a genius because he's been dealt a crap hand. When we lose it's not his fault...because he's been dealt a crap hand.
     
  14. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    But has Gracia really been dealt such a crap hand?

    He’s still been able to field a fairly decent side in all of his matches. Yet we’ve failed to score in 8 of them.

    While none of them are prolific, Gray, Hughes, Doucouré, Capoue and Richarlison all started on Monday and all have scored goals this season..yet none of these players have netted since Gracia arrived.

    People say ‘oh yes but x or y is out of form these days’.

    But surely that’s the role of our coaches, to get players back into form?
     
  15. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    He's a coach, not an alchemist.
     
  16. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    By that logic, he's "improved" Kiko because he scored his first goal under Gracia, Deeney as he scored his first two goals from open play this season under Gracia, Pereyra as he's scored three times as many in fewer games under Gracia.

    Surely everyone would agree that Capoue is playing much better now than he was under Silva? Just because he scored one goal in the Premier League at the start of the season, it doesn't mean he was playing better then.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  17. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    But speaking overall he has not improved our goalscoring ability as we’ve now netted just 5 times in our last 10 matches.

    Are people’s expectations here now so low that our constant inability to score is just laughed off or met with endless excuses?

    If we draw a blank at Old Trafford, we will have failed to score in all 9 of his away matches in charge. Is that not a concern to people?

    Yes true he didn’t inherit the greatest set of attacking players ever. But my earlier point was that there were goals in the squad on the road this season.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  18. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Exactly. Richarlison was probably our worst all round play in Monday and left Holebas in the lurch repeatedly. He still gets his name sung and he's just "tired", but Holebas gets no end of abuse as he loses his head now and again. He's had more good games than bad and Richarlison is probably the other way round after his fantastic start then decline.
     
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    When we lost Chalobah, the team just nosedived under Silva. We couldn't play the way he wanted us to play and he had no alternate plan. At least under Gracia, we look a far better side, even though we are not getting the results performances are deserving.

    This may just be a perception, but I honestly think we are better now and have turned the corner. What's going against Gracia is this ridiculous away record. No away goals, only one point. It's appalling, but we've not been as bad as that record suggests. We were poor at Huddersfield, West Ham and Liverpool, but I think we've competed well at Arsenal, Stoke and Spurs. It's an anomaly why we've not scored any goals. We had at least three great chances to score at Spurs. Missed a penalty at Arsenal, but away form does need to improve, that's for sure.

    At home we've been pretty good. That wonderful Chelsea victory, good gritty wins over Everton and West Brom and good performances against Bournemouth, Burnley and Palace. He's had 12 league games, and Watford have played well enough in 9 of those.

    He will be judged on the results of course, but, I think he's been let down by the limitations in key areas of the side. You could say the same about Silva of course, but I would counteract that by saying the performances were never as good as they are at home right now, under Silva. Even when we were flying with great away wins, we always laboured at home.

    Silva had the benefit of a fresh, fit side, coming straight out of pre-season. He had that dynamic Chalobah, Cleverley, Doucoure triangle which was paramount to Watford's form. Take that away and it's inevitable things would go downhill.

    This is the bottom line, and is just an opinion, but give Silva Watford's current squad and we would not be playing anywhere as near as well as we are under Gracia.

    We were a shambles at the back under Silva. Now we are still making silly mistakes, but that's down to the limitations of the players. The overall shape is far better.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  20. TripleH

    TripleH Academy Graduate

    A lot is being made of the sequence of games without a away goal. But it's just that - a sequence. I've got a system at the bookies that makes money, its a sure fire winner, but there's always that sequence in between, that run you can't explain. Had just a couple of the 50/50 games we've had turned into 0-1 wins we'd all be happy, there would be no sequence, had we taken our chances against Spurs it would have been a goalfest probably ending 6-2. The only way to counter a bad sequences it is to A) be patient like Man Utd were with Fergie all those years ago or B) Make a change to the manager and hope the new one does better, West Brom should have done this a few games earlier, they stuck with Pardew even when the team was playing poor. So it's A if the team are playing ok and B if they are playing dire and not competing, from what i've seen the last few games it's still A. I'd go for B if there was a top drawer manager available who's willing to come here but these don't grow on trees

    Don't get drawn in by sequences and stats, they are for filling space in the tabloids
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  21. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Agreed. It would be bonkers to change the manager.

    At Wembley on Monday we got there early because I'd heard security was slow, (it wasn't). We were near the front so I got a good view of the warm-up. The players looked happy, they were giving it 100% and to my surprise looked totally up for it. The game reflected that so in my opinion the manager is in full control of this group.
     
  22. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    Exactly LPC, I've said something similar in another post.
     
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    This is my take on it also. The players seem to be happy with Gracia. Kabasele was singing his praises. Ok, no player is going to say negative things, on the record, about the current coach, but I get the feeling the vast majority like him. Of course you may get a different take from Richarlison, Gomes, Gray and Carrillo, who've not had much of a look in since he's been here. I saw head shaking on the bench when Hughes was taken off as well, but the general feeling was Silva was divisive. He did seem to alienate parts of his squad. I think Gracia is more inclusive.

    With Hughes, I can only think he's under instruction by the medical staff, this is why he's always being taken off early. I don't think he's selecting the correct keeper either, but apart from that, I liked the look of the shape of the team on Monday. That's an ideal formation for away games.

    At home I'd like to see two up front, but 4 at the back suits us far better. I'd like to see a 4-1-3-2 formation for the home matches and 4-2-3-1 for the away games.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  24. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Whilst your point is correct, Holebas has not had more good games than bad.
     
    dynamo380 likes this.
  25. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Holebas, like Deeney and Gray, had the gall to respond to fan criticisms. The Arseford fans amongst us don't like that so become the booboys.
     
  26. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    I agree completely. We desperately need some continuity at the club right now, and changing coach again would do more damage than good.

    What the reruitment team must do however is buy players that fit into the club's philosophy and are tactically versatile. We should never ever go back to the days of signing players like Mario Suarez just because QSF was manager and Suarez was a favourite of his. Dreadful move.
     
    scummybear likes this.
  27. põder

    põder First Year Pro

    I am in the Gracia in camp, but the one coaching element I don't understand is why when the team has relied on goals from the midfield this season, the midfielders have so rarely got into goal-scoring positions (Peyreyra aside) over the last half dozen or so games. That and the covering work of Richarlison, I would lay at Gracia and his (rather large) coaching team's door.
     
  28. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    To be fair we got more out of Suarez than the assorted garbage that the favoured Belgian superagent has sold us for millions and millions.
     
    wfcmoog and El distraído like this.
  29. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    I would give Gracia the chance to work for a whole close season. A few changes of players and the return to fitness of others should help. If I was looking to make a radical change it would be in the health/fitness team. Somehow they have to learn to deal with player ailments and get our players back in the same time frame most other clubs manage. It would help any manager.

    However one thing any manager must do is find a way to make the team focus 100% and sadly we have not been doing that this year. We are top of the ineptitude league - I know it was only a bit of fun in the Guardian but it did show we have wasted points and it is not down to the quality of our players but their determination. Players who do not focus for a whole game and who makes unnecessary errors must fear for their place in the next match.
     
    El distraído likes this.
  30. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    Also the three most underperforming players. Coincidence?
     
  31. Jimthehornet

    Jimthehornet Academy Graduate

    I didn't make a moral statement. You're suggesting that they will play their best when they get paid either way. You're naive for thinking that.
     
  32. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    I heard some whopper on talk***** discussing this, an ex pro. He rubbished the idea of players giving up when the team has nothing to play for, because they are selfish individuals who are always hoping for a move to a bigger club, or to get a pay rise at their current club so are always motivated to play to the best of their ability. The consequences for the team are the least of their considerations.
     
  33. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    I just don’t think you can airbrush out our away record over the past few months. It’s real. And it’s horrendous. And if we’d have had 3-4 fewer points in the bag when the poor away run started (under Silva to begin with), we would be very deep in the relegation mire right now. As it will probably end up, we will probably be able to excuse Gracia’s away record when the season ends because we should still have enough points in the can.

    We haven’t remotely looked like winning any of his away matches. We haven’t always played badly in them and we’ve had some shocking misses too, such as Pereyra at Arsenal, but I don’t think we can truthfully say we’ve had matches on the road we should have won. As we haven’t scored in any of them, we haven’t even had the chance to concede our traditional last minute equaliser!

    We have played well on the whole at home, and he deserves credit for this.
     
  34. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    When it comes to away games, you have to consider three of those we played were Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs. All games you expect to lose regardless of how the season is going. So it's only really 3 games where we should critically judge. Huddersfield wasn't a great performance, but should have yielded a point. West Ham was a similar type of performance and we lost to another two crap pieces of defending and Stoke, again similar performance but we engineered a point which is acceptable.

    So the headlines look bad, but once you look at it a little closer, it's not as dreadful as it sounds....IMO.
     
  35. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    And we lost the FA Cup tie to a side in the bottom three, although that was hardly Gracia’s fault as he had only just arrived.

    On paper yes the three matches you mention are always going to be tough. Yet Arsenal were very out of sorts (and we’ve won there the past two seasons) and equally Spurs looked to have a cup exit hangover.

    The other three teams are all sides below us in the table so a return of 1 point from 9 and no goals scored is disappointing.
     

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