Good post. Although I would make it handball on all occasions - how can anybody know wheter he meant it or not? You know where you stand then. Also I would give straight free-kicks for obstruction, which is too similar to other types of foul to easily differentiate.
I have only seen the stills of the fulham goal and I can't see why on earth this is controversial. Not only is Mitrovic just offside, but every other fulham player is also offside. How is the linesman supposed to look down that line, see a wall of white shirts in front of red, including Mitrovic' upper body and not flag? The only contention seems to be that Mitrovic isn't offside enough, but he is offside.
I can see where you are coming from - but that will lead to players just kicking balls at arms and hands from point blank range knowing they will get a penalty for it. I'm all for simplifying the over-confused rules and taking a lot of the interpretation away from referees - but some things can't just be made a case of black and white.
Despite the poor officiating of the game we played pretty poorly until Deeney came on - I'd say that was more concerning than wrong calls on the offside and penalties not being given. 1-1 was a fair result in the end. If we play like we have done the last two games against Liverpool and City we'll end up losing by 4 or 5.
I've just watched the extended highlights on the official site, and once again, I've really enjoyed Watford's performance. We are creating so many good goal scoring opportunities, even in a game where we were not at our best, we could have scored 6 or 7. I totally believe, that if we continue to create these types of chances, that someone will get a good hiding from us. It's not beyond the possibilities for Watford to score 6 or 7 against someone this season, home or away. One day, all our chances will be put away, when everyone's biorhythms are aligned. Here's the match transcribed. We didn't have it all our own way, but goals change games. Somehow we need to find a clinical edge. If we do that, we could be an awesome side. Top 6 even. 3 mins. A loose Southampton pass straight to Femenia. He drills the ball forward into the path of an unmarked Deulofeu. He is clear of the Southampton defence, but enters the penalty area at an angle. He has only the keeper to beat and fires in a low shot, but McCarthy has his angles covered and saves with his legs. Deulofeu did have the option of a square pass to Success, and that may have been the better option. Really should have been the first goal of the afternoon. 7 mins. Femenia intercepts the ball in midfield beats one player and tries to play in Deulofeu. His pass is a little heavy and wayward. Bertrand gets to it first but rushes his clearance. It goes straight to Kiko who plays a simple ball to Success on the edge of the Southampton penalty area. He drives forward and Deulofeu takes the ball off him. He moves to his left and tries to the curl ball into the top corner. However, he gets underneath it and the ball goes high over the bar. It was a good chance though and again he had the option of a square pass to Pereyra. I don't blame him for shooting though, as he was in a good position to do so. 8 mins. Southampton give the ball away to Deulofeu who plays in Success. He takes the ball to the edge of the 'D' and shoots. Unfortunately for Watford, the ball hits the outstretched toe of Hoedt and deflects over the bar. Again, had Success been aware, there was a simple pass to his right which would have left Deulofeu with a 1 v 1 from close range. Another excellent opportunity to score not taken. 14 mins. The first Southampton attack of the game. At this stage, had we been ruthless (or Man City) the score could have been 0-3 already. Gabbiadini tries a chipped shot from the edge of our area, but the ball goes high over the bar and was not really any concern to the Watford defence. 18 mins. A corner to Southampton. The ball is floated over and looked to have gone out of play in flight. (another possible mistake from the officials?). Hoedt has a free header as he outjumps Mariappa. Fortunately the header goes straight at Foster who parries and Cathcart heads away for another corner. 19 mins. From the resultant corner Southampton score. This was an uncharacteristic mess from Watford defensively. Bertrand delivers a decent ball to the near post. This is heavily contested by players, but the ball skims off Mariappa's head and lands at Kiko's feet who plays the ball on to Pereyra. Pereyra takes a heavy touch and the ball bounces off his knee and gets stuck between his legs. This may not have been so disastrous had Doucoure and Holebas held their positions, but the both elected to charge forward not realising Pereyra was in trouble. Once the ball was wrestled off him by Ings it fell to Gabbiadini who only had Foster to beat, which he did with ease. 24 mins. The ball is given away by Southampton from their own throw in. It's picked up by Deulofeu who runs towards the penalty area. This time he tries to play in Doucoure, but the pass is a poor one. Had it been executed perfectly, it would have been another brilliant scoring opportunity. 28 mins. A nice move from Watford with quick passing around the edge of the Southampton penalty area, sees Pereyra played in. He squares the ball to Success who deliberately steps over hoping a colleague would be behind him. Deulofeu was just behind the play and didn't manage to receive the pass, but it was another slick move which was so close to becoming a perfect goal scoring opportunity. 31 mins. Success wins the ball well on the halfway line and this sets up an attack. He plays an excellent pass to Deulofeu who runs alongside a Southampton defender but has the pace to accelerate away from him. Once he gets just inside the penalty area he has an opportunity to shoot first time. Unfortunately he just delays, takes another touch, but this time although he's closer to the goal, the angle is not so favourable, and McCarthy makes a decent yet comfortable save. 33 mins. A rare Southampton attack sees Gabbiadini head just high and wide. Although it was a remarkably good effort as he was about 12 yards out and leaning back. 34 mins. Another nice move on the edge of the Southampton penalty area, sees Pereyra fire in a low shot on the greasy surface. McCarthy does well to parry the ball to safety. 36 mins. A good move from Southampton this time. Bertrand fires in a low cross which Armstrong met first time. His shot was low and Foster going in the wrong direction, made a really good save with his foot to deflect the ball wide for a throw in. It could so easily been a second goal for the Saints. Second half. 45 mins. Straight from the kick off, Gabbiadini runs forward. He's not being closed down but is still a long distance from goal. He tries an audacious long range curled shot which beats Foster, but fortunately for Watford it just sails wide of the upright. 50 mins. Success does really well on the by-line. He holds off the defender with strength before firing a low cross. Deeney does well to get in front of his man at the near post, and guides the ball goal wards, but McCarthy makes a comfortable save. 56 mins. This was the penalty, or rather the non-penalty incident. Chalobah plays a nice one-two with Deeney and finds himself free in the penalty area. Bertrand comes over and scissor kick tackles him to the ground. A clear penalty is not given, however, Pereyra is quick to the loose ball and shoots first time, but again McCarthy makes the save. 64 mins. A Southampton corner is well defended by Deeney who clears the danger with a firm header. The ball is picked up by Southampton just outside the penalty area and is worked out wide to Redmond. He takes on and beats Holebas before squaring the ball to Austin. He fires in his first time shot into the roof of the net from the edge of the penalty area. Southampton celebrate for a full 30 seconds before they realise the goal is incorrectly ruled out for offside on Yoshida. 81 mins. Deeney does well in the corner holding off a challenge before crossing low to Gray at the near post. He's not in a position to shoot so lays the ball off to Doucoure. He takes a heavy touch and Ward-Prowse (who we tried to sign in the summer) rushes a clearance, which cannons into Deulofeu. He ball diverts to Holebas. From outside the box, he steadies himself before firing in a low hard shot. The keeper looks to have it covered, but the ball takes a subtle deflection Soares which is enough to send the ball past McCarthy and into the net for Watford's equaliser. A fortunate goal on two accounts, but fully merited nonetheless. 84 mins. A corner to Watford nearly sees a comical own goal. McCarthy weakly punches the ball onto the head of his own defender. The ball flies back and hits the top of the crossbar with the keeper beaten. From the next phase of play, a superbly flighted cross from Holebas finds the head of Mariappa, but he is well challenged and the ball flies off for another Watford corner, although it was another bad refereeing decision as the ball came off Mapps last. 9o mins. A nice cross-field ball from Doucoure finds Success. He advances to the edge of the box and fires in a powerful shot. Deeney is in line with the direction of the ball and instead of diverting it towards goal, it just hits him and he ends up blocking it. Had he managed to divert it goalward it would have been a goal as McCarthy had already committed himself. A big let off for Southampton. 94 mins. Probably Watford's best chance of the afternoon. This was literally the last play of the match. A good long pass from Success, finds Deeney who outmuscles his defender and heads back to Gray. All Gray had to do was meet the ball with a firm header, but he was not brave enough under a challenge from Yoshida and didn't get anywhere near enough purchase on the ball. The final whistle immediately sounded after this. You can see, Watford created loads of good scoring opportunities. Southampton created very few, but those they did create they seemed to make more of than we did. This is a running theme for Watford this season, and highlights the growing need for an improvement in finishing or a clinical striker to be signed. It's frustrating when you see how well we play, yet being largely unrewarded. We had 13 scoring opportunities and Southampton created just 6, of which two entered the net and one produced a great save from Foster.
Rose coloured spectacles are obviously on today HB1. We should have lost that game by several goals. Southampton made 4 or 5 cast iron chances compared to our 4 or 5 half chances. We got away with a point.
My issue is that the ball was still rolling when Alison launched it upfield. The one instance where it would have made a difference, the one time it isn't enforced.
If I have rose-tinted glasses on then you are wearing a blindman's black glasses. 4 or 5 cast iron chances for Southampton? The goal they scored from was this type for sure, and the header just before it can also be considered like this, but only one goal can be concluded from these two, as the first was saved which directly led to the second chance. The Austin "goal" was not cast iron anymore than any of our chances. The only difference was the ability of the player given the chance. Austin and Ings are clinical finishers. Give them chances like that they rarely miss them. Had either of those two had the chances Watford created, I suspect both would be fighting over the match ball. The Armstrong chance was a good one, but again, only because he made a clean connection with the ball. The chance wasn't any better than Deulofeu's several or Gray's at the end of the match. To imply we could have lost 4 or 5-0 is quite ridiculous, but I accept that is your opinion. I just do not agree with it.
So our chances are judged on if player A had made a different decision we’d have scored but Southampton chances are not afforded the same permutations?
I can only presume watching it on TV and being there gives different views of the game entirely, but we walked out of the ground bl**dy happy with a point.
Watch the highlights and make you own mind up. I can't do this for you. I've transcribed the entire match in post #394. I've not made anything up. You can clearly see we have created twice as many scoring opportunities as Southampton. If Gray is braver he scores. If Deulofeu made better decisions at the critical moment he scores a hattrick. If Deeney deflects Success' shot he scores. If the referee gives a penalty, we probably score. If Ward-Prowse doesn't boot the ball at Deulofeu then there's not even a chance created. You see, it's all these little things that makes a scoring opportunity a good one or a bad one. I would say there were only 3 "cast iron" scoring opportunities in the entire match. Deulofeu in the 3rd minute, Gray in the last minute and Gabbiadini's goal. All other chances relied on varying levels of skill from the striker to make it a good chance or not. https://www.watfordfc.com/teams/first-team/match-report-southampton-1-1-watford
Don't get me wrong, I've been to loads of matches live and had a different opinion of how the game was. It wasn't until you see it on TV that you realise things were not as good/bad as your original impression. I suspect you were happy with the point, because at that stage of the match we weren't creating much, the game was nearly over and you probably had mentally accepted it would be a defeat.
When I played hockey at school I thought it was a weird rule that you could whack the ball at someone’s foot and get a short corner and hence a chance at goal for it. No idea if that still applies but it’s the same principle as the automatic handball.
Watford played much better at Newcastle than at Southampton. Don’t be like all those pundits and be blinded by the result.
I agree with HB1 on this one. We gave the ball away and let Southampton play too much but I came away from the match still thinking a draw was fair. However, as at Fulham, it was irritating because it was a chance of an away win missed against a mediocre team.
I hate to say it but the analysis of a nerd who has pored over the telly footage will always be more accurate than that of the pissed up saps who actually attended the match. Over the years the amount of times I've left the match and got home only to realise I had the score wrong at full time is frightening.
One thing to take from this - Southampton forum saying they were much improved, best they'd played for ages. We saying we were not very good (and we weren't, I thought beyond the obvious (Deulofeo) Doucoure and Chalobah were particularly disappointing, and easy passes gong astray all game). We are a good side, thoroughly meriting our position in the table, and but for some profligate finishing we could be an equally merited couple of places higher.
It was an outpouring of relief more than anything. As soon as the ball hit the back of the net I turned to the away fans and roared "I f****** told you c**** so!"
Oh yes, the original "being there v watching highlights" debate. I know you don't consider opinions if someone only attends home matches, and have not played at the in the Ryman's conference league like yourself, but seeing detailed TV coverage is far better for analysing a match. What do all top coaches do? Yes....bingo......they watch the match on TV over and over again, analysing the game.
Dermott Gallagher has pretty much thrown Hooper under the bus today. However, here's an interesting quote when talking about the penalty and yellow card: "Many would say careless, many would say reckless - I think the fact that he's on a yellow card, he'll think 'I've given a penalty, am I going to send him off?" That didn't stop Moss or Mason when dealing with Kabasele in the games against Spurs and Bournemouth. https://www.football.london/watford-fc/news/former-referee-say-simon-hoopers-15404752
We deserved at a point at the very least. Watford were really poor. Southampton were even worse. Southampton think their performance was a big improvement. What a sorry reflection on Southampton‘s chances for the season.
I’ve read RC’s post a few times since your response to see if I’d missed anything, but it seems pretty clear to me that he was supporting the idea that your analysis would be more accurate than somebody at the game. He even provides evidence to support that.
As was I but I certainly didn't think we should've lost by several goals. If anything I was disappointed that we didn't turn up till late in the game against a piss poor Southampton side, a little bit longer and we would've nicked all 3 points.
