Our hopeless defending

First of all, the way we play has got a huge amount to do with how bad our defence is. Silva likes our full backs high up the pitch, and to cover a huge distance. This requires great fitness/ rotation. Our midfield also press high, leaving us extremely exposed high up the pitch. Teams have learnt to sit back and then counter later in games, focussing on our exhausted wing backs.

But if we are looking at individual defenders, I like Wague, Kabasele, Kaboul and Femenia, all of whom are good enough for a lower-mid table finish. At this stage in their career, I don't think the rest are.

 

Need a CB with a Brain and Who can marshall our back four.
Before Prodls injury he was great at keeping our other defenders in line, since then not so much.

We need a CB who can see the bigger picture and is more organised, Someone with Bottle too so we can add more leaders to the Squad.

Someone like a Cahill, Johnny Evans or a Van Dijik.

 

Mind you we cant afford those, Just someone who doesnt switch off after 80 minutes and has some balls.

 

I've knocked Silva for 3 at the back but unless we have full backs we can trust I reluctantly suspect we probably should play it

 

When Flores took over, initially defence was our main strength. We only conceded 30 goals from the first 29 games. So it can be done with good coaching, even with the players we had back then.

After this, when it became clear Flores was going, the wheels fell off and we went on to concede 20 more in the final 9 matches!!

We’ve been haemorrhaging goals ever since, at an alarming rate.

Last season we conceded 68 goals from 38 games. An average of 1.79 goals per game.

This season it’s 40 from 22 games. An average of 1.82 goals per game.

Over the past 69 league matches, we’ve conceded a staggering 128 goals. An average of 1.85 goals per game. The record is dreadful.

Do Burnley have superior players to us? No, we can easily compete with a club like Burnley, but they have gone for the no-nonsense, strong and robust style defender. This is what Watford lack.

Now, I do believe the coaching style of Silva could be a big problem for the defence, as it was for Mazzarri before him. Defending seems to be a hindrance or an afterthought. Only Flores ever got to grips with it, until the end of his reign.

I also believe the club have been slow to react here. They’ve not taken this problem seriously. They have not signed the necessary quality in defence. They just don’t seem to want to spend money in this area. Kaboul was signed from relegated Sunderland, Janmaat we did spend some money on but he came from relegated Newcastle. Kiko, Britos, Cathcart and Prodl were all free transfers.

I’m not saying all our signings have been bad, but I am saying the defence has been seriously underinvested.

Janmaat is finished. He’s lost pace and he cannot stretch to block incoming crosses. Players run past him as if he’s not even there. I think his hamstring problems have caught up with him.

Kiko is one shining light. His pace and energy gets him around the pitch so can cover his position well. But we do not have a viable backup to him.

Holebas is also easy to get in behind. Does he or Janmaat offer enough in an attacking sense to compensate for their woeful defensive ability? The answer is no.

Zeelgelaar is new to the club, and although he impressed initially, he has levelled off and you can see his weaknesses all too clearly. He is purposeful going forward, but has the same defensive frailties as the others.

So if we offer little resistance on the flanks to stop the crosses coming in, the three central defenders have to be real leaders and strong. We may have 7 central defenders on the books, but they are all of similar standard. Britos is often beaten in the air, Prodl is slow, Kaboul makes too many mistakes and is far too injury prone. Cathcart is reliable, but again is at the age where injuries will blight him. Kabasele is a good athlete, but is so na*ve. Not seen enough of Wague yet, but he does look ok currently. Will his form drop though after a few more games, as is the case of so many others before him?

Mapps is again reliable, but is limited at EPL level. Hoban has that awful injury to contend with.

We seem to have a squad full of defensive back up players.

We have gone for attacking full backs that cannot defend or limited central defenders of a Championship standard. It’s just not good enough and it needs to be sorted out or else this season could well be our last in the Premier league.

 

Chalobah’s come back could be key in going some way to solve this issue. Thinking back to the Bournemouth game for example, they didn’t even get a look at our defense because Chalobah, Cleverley and Doucoure covered so much ground in midfield. Cathcart played 75 minutes in a friendly today and will be most welcome when he returns to first team action.

Beyond that, I don’t think we’ll see much of a change this season. Silva will be banking on our midfield and attack regaining their mojo, their ability to dominate games, rather than becoming a more defensive coach over night. I don’t think individuals are necessarily the issue - with the right tactics and plenty of work on the training ground, I’d wager that you could turn pretty much any back four at this level into a cohesive unit, but the desire to do so has to be there.

 

Exactly why I think a proper defensive midfielder is the key signing this window. Someone that holds their position in front of the back four but also has the energy and sees the game well enough to cover the full backs when the wide players are caught up the pitch. We kept three clean sheets in our first four Premier League games under Silva. Since Chalobah's injury we've been unable to replicate that system as we don't have a direct alternative - Capoue and Cleverley don't read the game well enough to play that deeper position, as they don't pick up runners; Watson is too slow; Doucoure plays the box to box role and is better at recovering the ball further up the pitch, Hughes plays in a different area of the pitch. I'm very worried we won't see Chalobah for quite a while yet so we need some proper cover in there. Someone athletic, who reads the game well and passes the ball forward quickly would be my first priority - even ahead of forwards, wingers, left backs.

All of centre backs are 6/10 Premier League players in my book, but they're good enough as a unit with a bit of protection.

 

I would genuinely be after Aden Flint and/or Bailey Wright from Bristol City. Plenty will turn their noses up at those suggestions because they aren't fancy names. But they know the English game, they have been through the leagues, won't cost an utter January fortune, have both been captain at their current club and know how to lead the line, both good in the air and effective at both ends. We cannot be signing players from abroad now who have a 50% chance of success. Its getting too critical. And both of the above players have also faired well against PL on a number of occasions this season.

These are the type of signings that surely Andy Scott was hired to make.

 

I agree with the bit I haven't highlighted in bold. I cannot agree with the bit I have though. The summer transfer window is the time to highlight the issues you have raised. Now it's about urgency and addressing what is immediately the issue. And that issue is the defence isn't good enough at all. Its not the time to play percentages about giving current defenders better protection, given their recent form and injury issues. We need to attack the problem at source.

 

I recall listening to 3CR on the way home from a game last season when it became obvious Mazzari was leaving, and the prospect of Silva was mentioned to Derek Payne. He was clearly unconvinced, stating that Watford's problem was stopping & then dealing with crosses into the box, and that was also clearly Hull's main weakness under Silva, despite their attacking improvement under him. And then Hull got mullered in 2 games. Payne expressed his concern that Silva was showing no evidence of being the type of coach who would be able to address this issue adequately. Seems he may have been right.

 

If he's not respected by the players by now then he's failing anyway.
Defending requires organisation as well as skill. I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure an Allardyce, Pulis, Hodgson type of coach would improve our defence quite a bit. However, our strategy appears to be to dominate midfield and use that to maintain possession and impose our skills on the opposition. This worked early in the season and we were thoroughly enjoying it, but coaches have worked out that, once we are understrength, we can be pressed hard and not have the strength or quite enough ability to resist. Our coach reminds me of Zola (but without as much charm and personality):
The brilliance and volume of our attacks does our defending for us. Unfortunately it's no longer working and we don't really have the personnel to carry out old-fashioned defensive duties. Their skills reside in their attacking abilities, not their defending abilities.
Double whammy.
But defending is supposed to be the relatively easy bit of football and I would have thought that quite a few of our players have enough ability to adapt, with the appropriate coaching. It's all getting a bit late for that, 'though.

 

'Aden' and 'Bailey' aren't fancy names?

 

Arent they a tv dectective duo?




PS If we did sign 'Bailey' we'd need to keep him away from Isaac

 

No, not having it.

Football under Flores was desperate. He didn't coach the defence to be good, he simply coached the entire team to be defenders.
We might be in the middle of a poor run, but Silva had me enjoying football for the first time in years not so long ago. Flores and Mazzarri made me never want to watch Watford ever again.
If you have 11 defenders on the pitch, it's hardly surprising that you'll concede fewer goals than someone that wants to attack a bit.

 

Success would consume Bailey till he was a dry husk.

 

I hardly think that Silva should be considering that our best tactic is to "dominate the midfield" against City, even with all our players injury free and available. He has to change his tactics dependent on the opposition. But he can't.

 

Indeed. Although against City first time around he did try to take them on at their game. Result = 0 - 6.
I can't help but think that, with each of our last 3 coaches, in one way or another there appears to be no plan B.

 

Everyone is still , expecting us to become a top 8 club after a few seasons . Not many clubs can do that , yes we have had a lot of injuries and quite a few offside goals against us if you can remember, I know that’s not an excuse.
Cathcart , is a decent defender, who don’t take his eye. Of the ball much and was a key part to why we didn’t let many goals in a few seasons ago.

Britos , is too wild , can’t pass well but can head the ball well.
Holebas , is Decent going forward , and has a good shot on him , but when it comes to defending it’s a 5 or 6 out of 10.
Kiko is Great , Kabasele is looking decent .

Zeegelaar , is slightly better than Holebas so not much of a improvement there.
Maps is a decent all rounder but nothing fantastic.

We definitely need a tony Adams leader in deffence not that I liked him much but it would keep them from loosing positions and day dreaming.

Deeney has really dropped in the pecking order for me , after thease silly fouls and sulking because he isn’t standing out like the best player on the field any longer.

 

You really don't need a space before a comma.

 

Two more goals that came from wide positions yesterday, bringing it to 13 out of the 16 goals we've conceded in the last 9 league games. Because Silva won't change his approach, I think a new athletic defensive midfielder is what we need more than anything, someone who can cover our full backs when they're inevitably caught out of position. It'll be a big ask for Chalobah to get back up to speed whenever he's finally fit.

Capoue and Watson were fine when we played in Quique's style where the back four were quite rigid and the full backs rarely pushed too far up the pitch (and never both at once). It meant that they only had to worry about the area in front of the centre backs which covered up for their lack of mobility/reading of the game. They simply cannot play in a Silva team where two full backs are pushed forward at the same time - they don't have the speed to cover attacks from out wide, even on the odd occasion they see the danger coming. Add to that the way they both slow play down when we have the ball and they are just taking up squad numbers.

Someone needs to sit in front of the centre backs but be able to help the full backs out. We have no-one in our squad other than Chalobah suited to that role. The situation is worsened by playing full backs that can't defend, with very attacking wide midfield players who don't track back that much. It's no wonder we are leaking goals down the flanks and if we continue setting up the same way with the same formation, we'll carry on doing it.

 

Agree. For us to pick up any points at all at the moment, we need to score two or more goals as our current defensive unit are simply incapable of keeping a clean sheet. Maybe two up front will help with that (still don't think Silva will do it unless he's in panic mode like yesterday) - but even if we were to play like that, it'd only take one poor performance in that formation for it to be permanently binned.

Whatever we think of Silva (and I admit I've gone full circle on how I rate him) - surely the board can see that we need urgent upgrades on our current available fullbacks. They are just not good enough at defending and it's costing us in every game.

 

Feels silly to want the board to knee-jerk buy in an inflated Jan transfer market if you agree that the formation is the main issue.

IF that is the issue then surely the primary course of action is to want Silva to switch to the right tactics to use with the current limited squad available.

 

The issue is a combination of the tactics employed and the slow recovery time of the injured players, if not the injuries themselves. The squad regularly needs refreshing of course, but this is better done in the summer.

 

We have the second worst defence in the league. It’s bad enough to get us relegated.

This is down to poor signings and poor coaching.

Something radical needs to be done immediately or else the unthinkable will happen.

I keep hearing that we’ll be ok once the injured players get back. Really? Was our defence any good with Britos, Prodl, Kaboul or Cathcart in it? No, we still concede in tonne of goals even with these players in the side. It will make no difference.

We need quality new signings or a change of tactics or coaching style, preferably both.

We’ve conceded 42 goals in 23 games and how many great saves has Gomes had to make to keep it down to 42? It’s just some sort of nightmare and nothing seems to be done about it.

 

We are the poor mans Arsenal, inept defending, players who look like the don't want to play for the manager, a manager who is on a two year deal but currently performing like someone looking for the sack, too many changes of personnel each game, complete lack of organisation, no solid defensive midfielder options, lack of organisation, defensive coach not worthy of the name. A big summer sort out is looming.

 

Wasn’t last summer supposed to be the “big summer sort out”?

 

That's exactly my point though. Throwing money at new players isn't necessarily the right answer as we have seen at other clubs.

Do you think someone like allardyce would be able to come in and sort our defence out with the current squad?

If the answer is yes then it's primarily the coaching that needs fixing.

Let's get the basics right with the current lot and do the big business in the summer rather than go crazy now.

 

I agree. I’ve seen what Flores did with less quality. We only conceded 30 goals in his first 29 games which was remarkable, so it can be done.

I did like what Silva did when he first came in, but that’s long gone now.

We are missing Chalobah and Kiko but really things have down rapidly downhill since the Everton saga.

I don’t really feel there’s a hope of turning this around which is quite depressing.

The players we have now are performing so badly though, especially the wing backs, that I think that needs fixing immediately. Even a good coach can’t change that.

 

Their first goal was just an unorganised mes in the box. Better organisation and understanding of position could easily have prevented that.

Their second - our defence were way too far up the pitch. Forget Janmatt being roasted, Zeegelaar was miles too far up the pitch and jogged back while their player was bolting past him to get into the box and score.

Just telling him to sit deeper and track back like his life depended on it would have sufficed.

I think both goals with our current squad were preventable. We just need to defend more intelligently and that comes from the coach.

 

Agree with you, I think the problem primarily starts with Silva, he's trying to persist with a formation and style of Football that we haven't got the players for at the moment, arguably it can work with a full strength starting XI as we saw earlier on in the season but even then we weren't entirely convincing. Silva left Watford the day Everton came in for him, all he cares about now is promoting his Footballing style & philosophy to ensure other clubs give him the benefit of doubt when considering him as their new manager, I imagine post-Watford we'll see Silva blaming the club rather than him self for this appalling run of form.

I don't think it would take a lot to fix the issues we have at the moment, it can be as simple as playing a little more direct, with a bit more tempo and focusing less on trying to slowly build up from the back ensuring we complete 938483 passes before taking a shot. Drop the horrendous zonal marking, which has been a complete and utter flop. A little bit of maturity from our players, i.e. less diving in, less arguing with the ref/opposition when trying to chase a point/win. A change in formation to accommodate Deeney and Gray, I don't think either is particularly great but I do think they can be a handfull physically and that alone gives them more time and space while the other occupies another defender, it also gives our creative players like Richarlison and RP a bit more freedom.

 

Oh I agree with you. The defence is a disaster. It has been coached poorly or nonexistent in the past two seasons, but players have to show some kind of ability in their positions as well.

They are not good enough individually or collectively in this league.

Apart from Kiko, every defender we have is of Championship standard at best.

So the combination of poor coaching and inadequate players is far too much to bare.

 

The mental picture of "inadequate" players baring all is too much to contemplate on a Monday!

If anybody is going to bare, then probably Deeney should be the one.

 

I don't want to see a bare Deeney any day of the week - eeek

 

I like that you have said 'coaching' rather than 'coach'. As I understand it Silva has strong limitations to what he can and can't do and so the way the team is set up and how it plays is the result of a whole group of people, including the owner.

 

I don’t think our defence has been helped by having to consistently be changed either. Look at Burnley’s start to the season and how impressively they defended. They did so with the same back four every week. Lack of injuries and consistent team selection allowed such a thing. And us? We’ve barely named the same back four all season, or back theee if playing with wingbacks. I haven’t checked but I reckon Wague and Kabasele might now be our longest pairing at the back this season.

On a wider point, Silva has only once named an unchanged side all season. Yes it’s a squad game these days but still! Maybe I’m old fashioned but I’m all for partnerships being built in a side. Doucouré and Chalobah were doing just that before injury struck! But in defence and attack rarely has this happened, thanks to injury, suspensions and tinkering.