Little Alfie Evans

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by zztop, Apr 27, 2018.

  1. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I'm pleased that his dad seems to be coming to terms with the situation now,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43914259

    I havn't been what he has been through, but our family have had some pretty horrendous health issues to deal with over the past couple of years, and little grand-daughter is probably my most cherished "possession" right now (I'm in an almost permanent state of "tears of happiness" when she is with me), but what has been going on around young Alfie was really starting to become distasteful, in my opinion.

    This is the second such situation in the past couple of years, and I don't think it is right that parents take these things so far. I wouldn't anyway. And as for the protesters outside the hospital that have been abusing the staff, what a nasty bunch!

    This is where I expect the often used responses that I'm "cruel and uncaring".
     
  2. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I'm sure that the Briish doctors have the best of intentions and probably think they know best, but I can't help thinking that the parents should have the final say, especially as the Italian doctors feel that they can possibly help.

    It would be different is ALL the medical opinions were the same, but they are not. Therefore Alfies parents should be allowed to give him the chance the Italians are offering both them and Alfie.

    I hope that legal reasons are not the only reason that Alfies parents are being denied a last chance to save their son, because surely they could sign some sort of dislaimer to exonerate the British doctors of any responsibility if they allowed Alfie to go to Italy and things were to go terribly wrong.

    Please just give them the chance to save their son, after all the British doctors could be wrong.
     
  3. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I agree with Lord Topp on this one at least.

    Abusing the doctors and nurses is just not on. 'Alfie's Army' were shouting "murderers" and such like at them I understand - people who devote their lives to caring for others. Absolutely unforgivable.

    Who would believe that the doctors and judges wouldn't make decisions only in the best interests of the child. What other possible motivation could they have? That said, I do think that the parents should have been allowed to take him overseas wherever they want. I'm glad to hear the parents have been allowed to take him home.

    An extremely difficult and upsetting situation made 100 times worse by Scouse histrionics and juvenile behaviour.
     
  4. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It is very hard. There was someone offering a miracle to the last child like Alfie in the news. He turned out to be a quack. On the other hand the child with cancer, whose parents took him abroad for proton therapy, after arrest warrants were issued, did well. Sadly it does not seem Alfie would have such hopes.

    The courts must be open minded to all the rights of the child. In the US there are cases where the parents have held sway and the child is still, 25 years later, in a vegetative state at home. It’s hard to argue benefit for the child in that case.

    I don’t envy anyone in these cases, the parents, the staff, the decision makers. I do see a lot of bandwagon jumping, people projecting their own grief and thinking they have licence to abuse the staff. They need to back off and give the family and medical teams space.
     
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  5. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I feel very strongly about this issue, though only from afar rather than any personal experience. I've tried very hard not to judge the parents - particularly the father - but can't escape the feeling that they've turned the whole thing into a circus. That in itself is tragic.

    Dozens of these cases are resolved every year in this country without ending up in court. I've seen people saying that Alfie is now the second and that shows there's a problem with the system. Nope. It just indicates emerging trend towards people not accepting the views of experts in the modern era. No one sensible is suggesting blind faith in the state or any experts is the way forward. Everything should be questioned, particularly where life and death are involved. There clearly comes a point however where enough is enough. The Charlie Gard case demonstrated that the courts will always err on the side of allowing more time if a genuine medical solution presents itself. In that case it ebbed away when the US doctor saw the reality of the situation, but he was allowed time to examine the child.

    The fact is that the people who have latched on to this case have an agenda. It's a pro-life, conservative, largely Christian plaything now. They've found a rare opportunity in our largely liberal society to promote one of their causes (abortion rights are next on their list). The father in particular has been used by this group, which I find despicable. He lost valuable time with his son chasing impossible hopes and dreams just to go and kiss hands with a bloke abroad for a PR exercise. At a time when the parents should have been quietly comforting their infant son in his final days they've instead been convinced by others to give him mouth to mouth and parade him in videos to keep him going and promote the cause. And that's without really mentioning the hateful ignorant mob the father has been whipping up at their behest.

    I would strongly suggest anyone with an interest in the case goes and reads the court judgements. They're pretty readable and provide really useful and objective information about the case. It also shows that the Christian Legal Group have now gone as far as to ask the courts to put the rights of the parents above the rights of the child. ie. They're not even arguing its in Alfie's best interests anymore. They're just saying the parents should have the right to choose when, where and how their son dies. The Court of Appeal gave that short shrift.

    The Italians in particular have taken a baffling approach. Giving him citizenship was ridiculous and a clear effort to undermine the laws and customs of another country. It's a shame the government haven't publicly slapped them down, as we wouldn't stand for it if it were (say) Russia rather than Italy. But I expect words have been said privately and I do understand why no politician wants to go near this particular ticking timebomb.

    That all said, I've nothing against there being a wider debate about the issues in play here. I can't see beyond the child's rights being paramount but I understand others seem to feel differently. I actually think when push comes to shove a large majority would rather the child's rights were put first but maybe its right to have it out. But it should be done away from the specific facts and emotion of one case or another. The vehicle might be the 'Alfie's Law' thing The Sun and a couple of right wing lobby groups are promoting in the last couple of days. That should get the issue on the political agenda at least.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  6. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    That's a contradictory position though Clive. The doctors have said it’s in his best interests not to travel. Taking him on a tour overseas around various hospitals for end of life treatment, funded by Christian interests groups, definitely wouldn't be in Alfie's best interests. And, unless something has changed this morning, they're not allowing him to go home as it stands. Baring in mind 'supporters' have turned up at the hospital with life support equipment, and a German air ambulance crew had to be evicted by the police a few days back, I suspect there's a real concern that any attempt to take him home will be a front for a move elsewhere.

    The Italians aren't proposing any treatment. They're offering prayers, life support and palliative care only. They want to give the kid a tracheotomy (surgically put a tube down his throat to take over breathing) and a gastronomy (surgically put a tube into his stomach to feed him), both of which are options ruled out by Alder Hay because they are invasive, uncomfortable and would provide little benefit besides chaining him more permanently to life support systems.
     
  7. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    The whole situation is utterly depressing in so many ways. The behaviour of the crowd and the potential legal action by the father against 3 of the doctors is outrageous. I have great symapthy with the parents but plenty too for the staff who are having to put up with such appalling behaviour from the crowd and social media threats.
     
  8. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Disgusting all round from the father and rent a mob. The child is going to die, just have the dignity to accept that and make it the best possible ending you can, for everyone. In this case, (and with Charlie Gard last year), it seems that the only people that care about the child is the doctors.
     
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  9. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    The people judging the father are far too judgemental. His kid is dying. He's emotionally compromised, desperate and not thinking clearly. Cut him some slack and show some empathy, because he's as much of a victim here as anyone else. He's being blatantly exploited by pro-life Christian social conservatives, as UEA has said.

    The mob is another matter. Absolute pond life.
     
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  10. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Blocking a road allowing sick kids with parents to park was a low point for this Country. The fact the BBC lapped it up made it lower.
     
  11. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Hard to imagine the thoughts of someone doing that when they get home and take their coat off. A good days work done? Really achieved something?

    I'm assuming most are religious. The mix of fantasy and self righteousness really is toxic.
     
    Diamond likes this.
  12. With A Smile

    With A Smile First Team

    Its a hard one and no one is right or wrong

    As a parent we would all do everything we could for our kids and fight in every way we could to keep them alive.

    On the other hand the world is now a lot smaller place and doctors, medics, researches all share their experience and finding very very quickly. You can guarantee that Alderhay would have been in contact with as many specialists around the world to try to help Alfie.

    It's sad but should never be played out in public
     
  13. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    May he now rest in peace.
     
  14. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    A desperately sad case. As a parent, I can understand the need to cling onto anything in the desperate hope it will save your child; and I think there were clearly those who took advantage of this desperation and used it to push their own agenda. Sadly, now that poor Alfie has died, I imagine the less palatable elements of the press will be circling like vultures around Alfie's parents, encouraging them to sell their story. I hope they resist and simply grieve in private.
     
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  15. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    So sad, but hopefully the right decision was made for the poor little lad in the end.
     
  16. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

  17. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

  18. In court, Pavel Stroilov, the Christian Legal Centre law student representing Alfie’s parents, came in for the most searing criticism this week. He was described by Hayden as a “fanatical and deluded young man” whose submissions to the court were “littered with vituperation and bile” that was “inconsistent with the real interests of the parents’ case”.

    A Russian exile who has worked as a researcher for the current Ukip leader, Gerard Batten, since 2011, Stroilov was behind the attempt by Alfie’s parents to pursue a private prosecution for murder against three Alder Hey doctors.

    It is understood that Alder Hey’s legal team is considering pursuing a contempt of court case against Stroilov unless he provides details of his legal qualifications. “There are grave concerns about the wholly misleading advice that was provided by Mr Stroilov,” said a source close to Alder Hey’s legal team. Stroilov did not respond to a request for comment.
     
  19. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

  20. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Whoops, yes I did, but Alfie's parents are in the Mirror this morning.
    Sorry.
     
  21. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Until quite recently, these media circuses always contained the words "Max Clifford" and I'd hoped that they'd reduce, since he was caught out for noncery.
     

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