Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by GoingDown, Apr 7, 2018.
Maybe because we were discussing the squad?
Not sure why there is another thread on this, but anyway whilst I'm not really laying into Gracia, it does concern me that in all of the last three games we've dropped points thanks to opposition subs.
In mitigation we've been playing against three of the better managers in this league who are known for turning games round with astute tactical substitutions, but surely we must be smart enough to observe these changes and react accordingly without drastically changing the way we've been playing? Is it the fault of the players, the manager, or both? Why is it we so rarely seem to be able to put on match winning/drawing substitutions, whatever the manager?
Been said many times, but I really can't understand why somebody with a reputation for playing 4-4-2 is so dead against using it.
Gray and Deeney up front to me seems like an obvious solution. We're hopeless at playing out from the back, so why not give the defenders two players to aim for rather than one?
Pereyra for me has been a total passenger since his injury, but yet week after week he's shoehorned into the side instead of giving Deeney support. Why not just play a quite balanced midfield in Femenia, Doucoure, Capoue and Hughes?
I think that's unfair on Pereyra. He's looked much better in recent games - atrocious first half on Saturday aside - and two goals doesn't exactly support your view that he's a passenger. I've also seen him put plenty of defensive work in during that time too. It's no surprise that he's starting to look more like where we'd want him to be once we've given him the time to play regularly.
He's not doing enough for me. He's a talent, but he's spent his whole career playing in a variety of different positions without anyone really knowing where his best position is. I certainly don't feel he's a left winger, but Javi's thinking is that instead of picking one of either Pereyra or Hughes, he picks both. I understand wanting creativity in the side, but its pointless when your only target is Deeney
I would take that 11 over our current starting 11 (even the 10 you've listed inc 2 x Perez - you missed Gayle and Dummett). Why do you think our players are better ?
Dwight Gayle is crap. Ayoze Perez is crap. Gray and Gayle are similar players. What’s hurting us is injuries and poor tactics as Benitez is a good manager.
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I think if we are to get rid of Gracia in summer, I hope that the Pozzo's go about their business the same way they did after Mazzarri. By making our intentions clear that WM would not be the Head Coach for the 17/18 season we were able to quickly snap up a highly wanted manager in Silva. I remember being so surprised that we were actually able to get him, considering the list of teams that were linked with him. If we stall with it and either wait until early next season or half way through summer I imagine the choice of managers would be lesser and we'll end up with another short-term solution.
There's not a great deal of difference between the Newcastle side who beat Arsenal yesterday and the one we demolished 0-3.
Here's the line-ups and used subs (those in red featured in both fixtures)
(stats from 11v11.com)
v Arsenal v Watford
Clearly it's mainly the defence that has changed, plus of course the positives that Kenedy has brought to their team (if only we could have got him......................)
I'd put their improvement down to the brilliance of Benitez and an upgraded defensive unit (remember how Zeegelaar tore them apart down their right hand side?)
If we could upgrade our defence and find a coach who could get the best out of our attacking players, I'd back us to beat them again. But under the current guise of our side (same or arguably worse defence, plus a seemingly blunted, attacking style/tactics), I fully expect the Geordies to roll us over. And should they do so - IMO - it won't be because they have better players in each position (some are, some aren't).
Kenedy seems to have been a catalyst for them,and ,as many have said,Benitez is a tip top coach.
One of the things Gracia has got right is playing Hughes in his proper position. Switching him to left wing, just so we can play two upfront, would be the very definition of shoehorning.
SO what happened when he was with us - just didn't suit Walter's style/tactics/formation etc.
It's a real shame about Kabouls injury problems as he would be a sure fire starter if he was injury free and an ideal candidate as our new captain, but alas I fear his injury problems will win out and he will be leaving us sooner rather than later
The problem is twofold IMO.
1. Gino Pozzo just isn't very good at choosing managers. It's actually criminal that he hasn't hired someone better than him to source the right managers. Sick and tired of our managerial merry go round as a consequence.
2. Many of the current squad just aren't up to it, either by not being physically good enough at football, or lacking the bottle for a fight when their backs are against the wall.
Correct these two problems this summer and we're sorted. Continue to balls them up like we have done for the past few years and I fear that next season may be our last in the PL for a while
Well the start of the season proves you wrong on both counts. Sorry but until the Everton saga Silva had us playing with passion and a swagger. Yes we've lost a few to injury, but it's the same squad of players.
What did annoy me though, was once Gino knew Silva had his head turned, he should of cashed in. A player who doesn't want to be at the club is one thing, but the head coach. The dressing room was gone then.
I think the Silva saga and we know Pozzo could have cashed in and had Gracia in London Conley before Silva had got to the M6, is cultural. In that he sees a reputation of not being forced to do a deal, is in the long run the best way to get what you want. Especially as the money is in player trading at all his clubs to date.
Newcastle aren't a more talented side than us, Benitez doesn't want half those players, do you recall the hoohar last summer when he wanted funds to build a premier league team.
What they are is motivated, well managed, well led, play to their strengths, and put square pegs in square holes. All the things we're not.
How does that work? The manager doesn’t want half of them, they know it, yet they are still well managed and motivated?
Possibly has something to do with footballers being as thick as 2 short planks?
Motivation doesn't always come in the form of praise. When somebody as good as Benitez says he wants to replace you, then for certain players that probably makes them get their act together. Mourinho has been using the same tactic for years
Not disagreeing with that. I could certainly see a couple doing that but not as many as being suggested.
I'd say it has more to do with them playing for the fans as they care about their reactions up there. Whereas a lot of our players couldn't give us a toss.
I'd actually say quite the opposite. There haven't been many managers under the Pozzo reign that I haven't been impressed with (I think Sannino is probably the worst).
Zola = A decent enough hire, very close to nabbing us promotion.
Sannino = Imo the worst (with WM) hire out the lot so far.
Oscar Garcia = Had good pedigree and we started off ok under him - I was excited to see what he'd do with our squad.
Slav = A fantastic hire imo and one that came from nowhere. A pleasant surprise.
QSF = Style of football was bad, but he did the job he was bought in to do = keep us up, which he did very well.
WM = Again the style of football was bad and we were butchered by injuries, but he still performed ok. A bad hire.
Sssilva = Style of football was good, but obviously things turned to **** when Everton came in. What could have been..
JG = Came in to steady the ship which he has done to an extent. I don't think he's the long-term solution we're after, but he's done what was required of him.
Each time Gino has had to find a new manager requiring different capabilities and he has done, obviously there's a lot of crazy aspects that most clubs haven't had to deal with (like the Oscar Garcia and Silva sagas), but each time I'd say Gino has managed to hire the right man for the job at the right time.
So if we sack Garcia - who should we realistically go for as a replacement? The fella from Benfica apparently is leaving Rui Vitoria ? Van bronckhorst ? Andre villas boas ? Lucien Favre ??
Right, but doing the job asked of them and style need not be incompatible, need they? So in that sense QSF was only partially a good hire. Obviously Gino thought that too, otherwise he wouldn’t have binned him.
Unless he thought that someone else was needed “to take us to the next level” (dreadful phrase). And if that is so, I think you are too charitable to WM and I would suggest that he was not the right man for the right job at the right time.
Surely you're joking. Apart from Jokanovic the rest can be summed up in one word-mediocrity
What strikes me is the pattern these coaches seem to have. There is one noticeable exception to the rule, but what seems to happen is a new coach comes in and our form hits a dramatic high going on runs averaging 2 points per game, then disaster strikes and we go on runs of well under 1 point per game averages.
Zola had a good first season. He's the only coach that's maintained good form throughout an entire campaign. Where it went wrong for him was in the following season. Watford's form plummeted and he resigned. When then had Sannino, who improved the defence, which is something he had to do, form improved then nosedived again in the final few matches. I was surprised he wasn't replaced at the end of that particular season, but he only lasted a handful of games before it become obvious he was not going to lead us to promotion after a poor start.
We then had a bit of a flurry. Garcia and McKinley came and went in a blink of an eye before Slav was appointed. Now he's the exception I mentioned earlier. He actually started off poorly before...bang.....we went on an incredible run which lasted the entire season. For whatever reason a compromise could not be found on contract negotiations and he was let go. I think that was a big mistake.
Now in our first season back in the Premier league and QSF was appointed. He did a brilliant job for half a season, which basically ensured we'd stay up by Christmas. Then the wheels came off, and we ended the season in a nosedive.
No surprise he was released and a new guy appointed. Mazzari was a really bad fit for the club, but even he made a very good start. We reached a high by beating United 3-1, then once again we entered a steady decline which ended in a complete collapse of form.
So, we went for a promising young coach in Silva. Again, a brilliant start to the campaign, picking up 21 points from the first 13 matches. Since then we've only picked up 16 from the next 21 games.
Out went Silva and in came Gracia. Once more there was a bounce in form. We picked up 10 points from his first 6 games, but then all the same signs started to happen. Only 1 point from the next 5. Gracia's good form has lasted shorter than his predecessors.
So you can see, with varying degrees, each coach has started off with good form, but then we've completely collapsed under all of them. Only Joka ended on a high.
I agree that this is the main problem. I don't think that is the managers fault, nor perhaps Gino's, and I'm not really sure how we'd go about fixing it either, it's all a bit strange.
An italian I've never heard of, with decent hair and a sharp suit for me.
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the way to at least start changing this culture is to hire a manager for more than one season. And for that manager not to have a CV that is full of clubs that he has left after one season. I feel sorry for Gino as I genuinely think he believed we'd get 2 years out of Silva but it was taken out of his hands.
Silva would only be with us for one season, we all knew that. Success and he was off. Lack of success and he would be out of the door. We were always a stepping stone.
I would be surprised if we have a coach for longer than a season for the same reason.
It is all very well to hire a manager intending to keep them for more than one season - I suspect QSF, WM and MS were all hired on that expectation. However if you then believe the manager has lost it then do you keep him and watch us be relegated?
Unfortunately our players know they are immune. It will be the manager who gets the bullet. We have to get rid of the toxic players and only keep ones who will give their all for the club.
And what if he was moderately successful, 11th place and 47 points, say?
I don’t think “we all knew” he would only be with us for one season at all.
Agree. I hoped he would help us build on the last two years and maybe get us to around 50 points. That would have gained him some respect and attention but possibly not led to him being head hunted so early. We could have then had another season with him.
Preferably with broken English.
The only problem with that is it'd leave us with a squad of zero players.