General World Cup Thread

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by Otter, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Heidar

    Heidar Squad Player

    Caballero is stealing a living
     
  2. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    I had to laugh at the thought of a woman sounding like that!
    We have a player at the club who speaks entirely in vowels so they'd be a good match.
    Messi may struggle to match Maradona at this rate.
     
  3. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Argentina will have to hope Iceland don't win tomorrow otherwise they are in real trouble.
     
  4. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Feel a bit sorry for Messi. That Argentine defence was horrible.
     
  5. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Messi did nothing to deserve it himself. Was just as much a part of the failure as the rest. Croatia very good value for their win.
     
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  6. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    It's going to interesting to see how FIFA justify giving Messi the golden boot this year. Last world cup's was embarrassing enough.
     
  7. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Messi the invisible man.
     
  8. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    Argentina very much an example of a team being less than the sum of its parts - so many excellent individuals, yet they just don't seem to be able to find a way for it to work properly.

    Even without the howler, I'd have still fancied Croatia for the win. Just goes to show how important it is to have a coach who can assess the players he's got, and find the right system/tactics to get the best out of them.
     
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  9. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Naturally Lawro predicted an Argie win.
     
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  10. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Really? I'd suggest exactly the opposite.

    So far (23 games in) we've had no cases of mistaken identity and only one sending off (for blatant hand-ball denying a goal - so no controversy). Iran were correctly denied a goal for offside against Spain on review (the only such incident I can remember having watched the lot apart from a couple of second halves). Well, at least 'half watched' - I might have nodded off on occasion!

    Then there are penalties. Eleven so far in 23 matches. Well above average. None that have been awarded have been blatantly 'wrong'. Some have been marginal and debatable. That's inevitable and opinions on those have been divided in the studio. None have been awarded for a blatant dive.

    So we're left with those that should have been awarded but weren't. I can only think of three but there may be others I missed/have forgotten.

    Argentina should have had a second one against Iceland for a blatant trip. After the marginal one they were awarded which Messi had saved.

    Then there were the two 'Harry Kane wrestling' incidents. Well the first one also featured Stones misbehaving. But maybe they weren't referred due to 'too many penalties syndrome'. If so, that would be unfortunate. Refs have been very pro-active in admonishing 'wrestling' prior to a corner/free kick being taken. Award a couple of penalties once the ball is in play then behaviour would change pretty quickly e.g. if the first 'Harry Kane incident' had been awarded a pen. then I doubt if the second offence would have been committed. I understand those two incidents are under investigation by FIFA. I hope we get to hear what they conclude but somehow doubt it.

    Anyway, other than that the system's worked very well:

    - only used sparingly. Any fears of a stop-start game dragging on for ever haven't materialised at all. And each VAR incident has been reviewed fairly quickly.

    - the instruction to linos not to flag for marginal offsides has worked well

    - no blatantly wrong penalties have been awarded

    - the minimal use of VAR has backed up the excellent job the officials are doing in the first place

    - a VAR referral from the 'office' is a pretty clear instruction to the ref to reconsider though and it would be a brave one who went against that

    So all I can see is that, other than for a bit of tweaking, it's been excellent. And for those that don't like it I'm afraid that the ship has sailed and it's here to stay.
     
  11. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    Its not perfect, the Aussie penalty yesterday was wrong. Even if theres a debate that it hit his arm, it wasnt a blatant obviously wrong decision.

    I also think it encourages players to look for fouls, go down easily, initiate contact and get VAR confirming trips with a slight touch.

    And we might just get a team win the tournament because of the above. Imagine England getting to the semi final and losing to portugal because Ronaldo has thrown himself over for his 5th VAR penalty of the tournament, in a game where 2 harry kane rubgy tackles are again missed.
     
  12. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I broadly agree with all that, although when you say the use of VAR has been minimal we have to remember it’s being used all the time and it’s just the referrals that have been occasional.

    I think the instruction to linesmen not to flag, although necessary, is odd because it takes away one of their main functions. However the ones doing the England game clearly hadn’t got the message because there were two or three occasions when the the flag went up but the replay showed the player was actually onside.

    The trade-off in the use of VAR against the loss of referee discretion is leading to a distilling down of the interpretation of the rules, particularly on penalty incidents to try and achieve ‘certainty’. It seems the modern school of thought which says “he was touched so he was entitled to go down” is now the deciding factor because that’s what the VAR can actually see on the screen in slow motion, rather than things like judging intent both by the defender and the attacker. In the same way I suspect it won’t be long before any time the ball hits an arm it will automatically be deemed a penalty. The Australia/Denmark incident yesterday was a step towards this.
     
  13. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    Can you please show me in the rules where a 'slight touch' has any bearing on whether a foul has been committed?

    Maybe you already know that 'contact' doesn't equal 'foul' - if so why would you insist on implying that it does? Or maybe you didn't know, in which case why are you even expressing an opinion on a football forum?

    I'd certainly hope that the people operating the VAR system would have a better understanding of the rules than you.
     
  14. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    Yiuve misinterpreted what I meant. I dont think contact = penalty.

    You run past a defender, you dive over. If there a touch there are calls for a penalty, no touch its a dive. All im saying is VAR more easily spots the contact. The interpretation of who inititated the contact is still a matter of debate but imo it could encourage the "he's entitled to go down there" brigade.
     
  15. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    No, you can be touched and it still be a dive. It happens all the time. Please show me in the rules where it says any different.
     
  16. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I couldn’t agree with you more, but I’m afraid that’s what we’re having to accept with the advent of VAR.
     
  17. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    But it is only there to stop complete howlers which it is not what it's doing. Australia's penalty was not given originally but after looking at VAR it was but it was not deliberate and was headed at the arm from about 1 foot away so not a howler. The two against Kane are stonewall penalties yet the ref never even had a second look. Those three decisions are where it clearly doesn't work although I admit it has worked on other occasions. In my view it should be like the third umpire in cricket where the decision is given by somebody watching the replays and not by the umpire on the field of play. I think the problem now is that the ref on the pitch waves play on and then gets a message that it needs to be reviewed and his immediate thought is he has got the original decision wrong and has almost changed his mind before watching it again. I may be wrong as I haven't seen all the games but have any refs who have waved play on and then been asked to review it stayed with their original decision?
    Seems strange that they've decided to test this in the biggest football tournament of them all
     
  18. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    All the football authorities have always had this principle that the opinion of the referee is sancrosact and he is in sole control of the game. They are now trying to maintain that principle but at the same time completely undermining it with VAR.
     
  19. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Exactly the same applied to cricket. Cricket has coped and no one questions technology now. Don’t see why football shouldn’t be the same.
     
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  20. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    Im not disagreeing with that.

    Im saying every contact will be reviewed, meaning it's in the forwards interest to look for contact and hope it's interpreted as a foul. Thinking the VAR refs will get it right every time is naive.
     
  21. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    From the ever wonderful P O P B I T C H:

     
  22. goldpapaya

    goldpapaya First Year Pro

    Couldn't agree more. I think the Kane penalties weren't awarded because there were holding/pushing offences by others at the same time added to the fact that the ball didn't go to Kane. If Kane had been about to head/kick the ball then I think the VAR would have awarded the goal. It reminded me of the Deeney penalty at Palace a couple of seasons ago where Deeney was fouled but was nowhere near to getting on the end of the corner. Harsh on Palace as I am sure that there was holding/pushing by others on both sides at the same time. I'm not sure that VAR is only there to pick up on offences by the defence.
     
  23. goldpapaya

    goldpapaya First Year Pro

    Sorry awarded a penalty not "awarded the goal".
     
  24. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    We can argue about ball to hand/hand to ball, intent and looking for a contact as much as we like and so can refs and the VAR people. I'd file all of that under 'tweaking'.

    But even with this initial trial is anyone going to suggest that decision making hasn't already vastly improved? What would be unreasonable is to expect it all to work absolutely perfectly on its first run out.
     
  25. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    I remember that quite clearly I was watching it with my daughter and when the ref "blew" we both mentioned, at the same time, that it was a harsh decision against Deeney. Then we watched, in amazement, as the ref pointed at the spot...
     
  26. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    This is perhaps your most controversial comment yet...
     
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  27. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I agree with SLB. You want to get that checked out pretty quickly.
     
  28. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I see the Denmark manager agrees it was a penalty. His gripe is with VAR taking the 'charm' out of football.
     
  29. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Isn't the reverse also possible? That VAR will highlight diving and enable refs to punish them, where without the 2nd viewing, they might have given a penalty?

    VAR hasn't been used to perfection, it's true, however, the fact that no "hand of god" or Korea putting the ball into touch before scoring type moments have occured, proves to me that it's overall effect is beneficial.

    I don't agree that the France (first game) or Australia penalties were stonewall, but neither were complete non penalties that have been staple parts of football tournaments in the past.

    VAR has got rid of a lot of the bad goals/penalties and red card decisions. Is it perfect? No, but it can be improved upon and the fact that you can't achieve perfection is no reason to not strive for improvement.
     
  30. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    You keep saying that you don't disagree, but then keep banging on about contact being reviewed - it's a contact sport!

    You can foul without making any contact whatsoever, so why do you keep on about contact?

    It seems to me the problem with VAR isn't the technology, but rather the persistent myths surrounding the game.

    FIFA ought to use some of their cosiderable wealth making a series of TV adverts aimed at educating people once and for all. It might referee's jobs much easier.
     
  31. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Unless I've misunderstood, he isn't saying fouls can only be committed when there's contact. He's saying players are more likely to go down under minimal contact, knowing VAR slow-mo replays will be more likely to exaggerate it and they'll get a penalty, where before they might have stayed on their feet as it would never been given live. ie. More players will go down and take a chance on VAR.
     
  32. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    It stems from the commentators and pundits. Several times I've seen them reviewing decisions given and not given and used "contact" as the defining feature of a foul. Similarly "he's got a touch on the ball there" is often used as a false reason that a foul should not be given.
     
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  33. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Is that what we've seen so far though? I don't think so. It's been more a reduction in diving due to the increased chances of a dive being spotted as opposed to the opposite effect. I think!
     
  34. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I'm not sure. I've definitely got the impression some players are acting differently knowing VAR is involved. And not just in the sense of appealing to the referee for it to be used.
     
  35. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I'll give VAR that one, penalty given for foul on Neymar, overturned by VAR and rightly so. This is what VAR should be for, to stop the diving
     
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