Team Firesale - Pozzo Out Vs Team Resigned Happy Clap

So, how are we all feeling now these useless ponzos are once again showing just what it takes to not get out of this ****** league?

#shaunwasright.

 

I absolutely want the owners gone. I will support my team during each match. I am capable of separating the two.

There seems to be a growing trend for "told you so" comments as if beating Blackburn makes anti-owner posters wrong whereas the utter shambles of the last 18 months has been wiped away and is now irrelevant. Sometimes I think some people actually think the anti-Pozzo crowd want us to lose when we watch the team.

Believe it or not, I do passionately want us to go up this year, especially since I suspect failure to do so will leave us in a very bad spot financially due to previous poor decisions.

So in answer to your question, I very much enjoyed the match last night and think this team has good potential. However, none of that changes how I feel about the way the club has been run the last few years.

 

Well it should! Those people telling you not to make judgements about the season after a few games are doing exactly that and so they should. No one will stop us. 100 points PLUS this season. Maybe even a cup win.

All this after 6 games. You'd be stupid to think otherwise.

 

Depends. My disappointments with them are less about results. Promotion reverses the playing side damage of last year (and of course would bring them into heavy overall credit on that side), but in my view if they don't stop overstretching themselves financially we will end up in strife further down the line. The continual player trading I see as distracting and not always in our best interests (i.e. it is in the interests of Pozzo rather than Watford or Udinese) and leads to lack of focus on squad needs.

Contract strategy is crazy and expensive, especially for older players.

I suppose factor in minor but continual poor communication, general arrogance towards fans and assorted eye roll moments (Zuniga, Giraldi undermining managers, manager sackings and Pape Gueye.)

To be honest if we don't go up but the accounts show a shoring up of the financial situation after this summer's activities, and a fresh approach to squad building I'm more likely to be back onside than if we go up and carry on exactly as before.

Dunno I guess is answer. I'm happy to say I am wrong though if my views change and won't stick to my guns just to save face.

 

I know you didn't put this question to me but I do want to answer it...

I don't 'want them gone' as much as others. I want them to recognise their mistakes and show they really have learnt from them - promotion goes some way to doing that but it wont be 'job done' either. I think how they operate in the transfer window that would follow promotion would be telling too. I will judge them over a broader period than just the last few weeks.

Promotion would obviously be great and only a positive thing - but will it bring a level of comfort that allows those running the club to be complacent again? - that's my biggest fear. I don't want to hear about us 'best of the rest' or 'being a stepping stone' again. We will never be best of the rest whilst we have the level of investment that we do - and while being a stepping stone is obviously part and parcel of being a smaller club, we have over-egged the phrase when it comes to players and coaches.

Another fear is sacking yet another manager. If we go through another 2-3 coaches in the next 18-24 months, then I think that will see me fully joining the few who want the owner (or chairman at least) to move on.

I don't want the owner gone. But I do want to see at least the above changes before I throw full faith behind them again as well.

Lastly...I agree with @Jumbolina . It was noticeable on the Shoutbox last night too....those of us who are more critical of the owner and the way the club has been run in recent months don't want the team to lose a game of football. Ever. So somehow claiming it's a 'tough night' for us when we win is complete bo*locks. I back the players we have currently at the club and the coaches leading them - that's where my loyalty lies so when they do well and win, I'm very happy. When we lose, I think I'm critical of certain things. I think I'm able to be even-handed at both and rarely go overboard. And there are things to be critical of when we win...and things to be supportive of when we lose. But it's a nonsense to think any of us want the team to use matches.

 

I can't get away from the suspicion that the cost of staying in the PL was much higher than they anticipated based upon their experiences of doing the same with Udinese in Serie A. Hence the over-stretch, which I agree is very concerning.
If we do go back up again, I'm not sure we can remain financially secure AND make a proper fist of staying up...definitely not for more than 1 or 2 seasons.
But are most fans ready to accept that position?

 

Yes agreed. I believe staying in the prem was far more expensive and far more difficult than they expected based on their experiences at Udinese.

 

There's the danger of a circular argument here in that some will say that the mismanagement of finances, rather than the overall running costs of being in the PL, is what led to relegation. (For example investment in new players in key positions instead of extending the contracts of ageing players with little transfer value.) I don't wholly subscribe to that view and I suspect a club of our size and resources needs to find a moderately regular supply of Richarlisons to sign and then sell at large profit in order to be sustainable at PL level.

 

I don't really think that a bit of banter going in the direction of our more negative fans after a win is such a big issue. It certainly comes in the opposite direction after a poor result, with regular discussions how one or two of the posters were right after all. The term "happy-clapper" has been used on here thousands of times, whereas the term "bed-wetter" is fairly recent, I think, and is a term I don't think I've ever used.

But, the nature of this to-ing and fro-ing is quite different isn't it? One side is having a "I told you so" gloat after a win by the club they love, and the other side is having a "I told you so" gloat after a loss by a team they say they love - and personally I struggle with that.

But I think it is pretty harmless banter whichever side it comes from.

I have found the incessant negativity in the Shoutbox quite painful as it spoils the match experience for me, but the solution is easy, I just don't participate much. Although, and somewhat annoyingly, I do keep an eye on it, as it is usually ahead of the game I'm watching. But even that is losing some of the attraction as it used to be a running commentary of the game, but now, even if we let a goal in, many of the comments are "Lol" or "Hahahahaha", or "xxxx is so ****".

I don't mind the "That was a poor pass from xxxx" or "We need to put xxxx further forward, or replace him with xxxx, as it just isn't working" type of comments as they attract a possiblility of a bit of a discussion and that is what a forum is for. It's the "xxxx is so ****" followed by "xxxx really is ****" 10 minutes later that is so boring, as there is no discussion or dialogue invited, they just want to be negative, because that is what they are. A bit like the people we see in the stand at a match, who just constantly moans about everything at the top of their voice.

But then again, maybe I have it wrong, after all, it is called the "Shoutbox", maybe that is what it is for - shouting.

 

Re your last point, I think it’s a symptom of the ‘boy who cried wolf’ scenario.

If you look at bed wetters vs COGs, COGs don’t start threads saying how great things are, they don’t start threads saying what a great transfer window we’ve had, or start threads saying how great the owners were about communication every moment of the Suarez transfer, etc.

If you take Nath as the extreme, the pessimists are generally relentlessly negative about everything, even things that don’t warrant it. Obviously the club have made a number of bad mistakes, but it doesn’t mean everything subsequent to those mistakes is automatically a mistake either.

When people adopt an almost relentlessly negative position and actively voice this displeasure at every single decision the club make, its natural for people to assume they will be unhappy when things actually got the right way.

 

The Pozzos haven't been perfect by any means. But they've very arguably been our best ownership in several decades. Going back beyond that is pointless as the game and the business side of things are so different as to not be comparable at all. FFP prevents owners from simply dumping in cash. You have to be "clever" about it (i.e. get one of you other companies to overpay for licensing, advertising etc.). Clubs that do that typically are not friendly to the traditions of the past (family oriented, retaining long-time season ticket holders, etc.). So we should be careful what we ask for. The Pozzos are trying to do this in a fashion where ther is slow, measured growth. Where the football operations pay for sustained slow to moderate growth in the league position, stadium, etc.. Has everything worked? No, clearly not. But the other options are 1) Spend less, be a full time selling club (harder now with the new pro-poaching rules) and sink back down to our natural level (mid-upper Championship with the occasional promotion then immediate relegation) or 2) Go full-on Billionaire. Build a massive 70K seat stadium away from Watford, surround it with shops and mixed-use structures, spend big money for loads of foreign players, bring in hordes of new glory-hunting fans and hope to become.... Everton? Wolves? An occasional Champions league spot? At the risk of being dramatic - is "losing the soul of the club" worth that?

The EPL has about 3 tiers in it. The Big 6, the next 4-5, and everyone else is trying not to get relegated. The Pozzo model (which clearly hit a snag) was designed to slowly move up between tiers. 2 years ago we though we were about to become entrenched in Tier 2. Clearly that didn't happen. Personally I think their business plan is the right one. Get solid one tier at a time. Where I think that they missed the boat was on the footballing philosophy side. In order for this to work, you need a conveyor belt of talent coming through (bought cheaply then grown, homegrown, plus the occasional big signing) that all fit together. Even Managers with compatible styles as these tend to change frequently almost everywhere. I think they were too helter-skelter on the philosophy, player acquisition and development side. The musical Mangers of course exacerbated the situation. The hope (and that's all it is at this point) is that the new bloke - the Sporting Director Giarretta - will provide this direction and continuity.

But if people are hoping for the days where a Graham Taylor walks through the door and through the sheer force of his will and brilliance transforms Watford into something that can compete even in Tier 2 of the EPL... and that we could keep such a brilliant man, their hope is delusional. The game and the economics are different now. It's almost like hoping that Singapore and India will ask to come back and be part of the Empire.

 

The issue is that people are judging the Pozzo’s against a benchmark of being an established PL club. Something they created, but we were nowhere near previously. I find the rubbish some “supporters” bang on about all the mistakes they have made ridiculous. If they are referring to transfer dealings then get used to it. We are not the size of club that has the money to buy established PL players, we will always be fishing in the pond below that looking for players that can step-up. By it’s very nature that means there will be a high% of misses. I am not saying they are immune from criticism e.g of course they should have been spent to improve the defence last year, and they didn’t. We have no idea what they will do in the future, but if we look at the last 8 or so years, it has been nothing other than a complete success.

 

Or...to a point, is it that others expect people like Nath to be negative about everything so when he makes valid points or offers positive thoughts and opinions, they are largely ignored?

Saying people are 'relentlessly negative about everything' is a sweeping generalisation that isn't true. There is the odd comment here or there that is stupidly negative - but I think that goes the other way as well...just yesterday someone said we have had a 'hugely successful' transfer window. Hyperbole has travelled in both directions.

If we had a great transfer window or the clubs communication had been brilliant this summer, then I would have fully expected threads opened by positive fans praising them - and I'd have joined in. But it didn't happen. The communication was poor so it was commented on. And I haven't seen a thread started bemoaning how bad a window it was for us either....

The club has gone through a tumultuous time in recent months - it stands to reason there has been some negative threads started. And just flicking through the first few pages of current threads, there are many started on a positive footing by people wanting to know 'Favourite moments' and "Happiest you've been as a fan' etc... Bit unfair to suggest its only one side of the debate spreading their thoughts.

And I have to disagree - no matter what anyone says on here, we are all fans of the club so its a ridiculous notion to suggest any of us are happy to see the team lose. It's not natural to assume otherwise just because some are critical of decisions made by the owner.

 

Think you might be on to something there. Since September we've had:

The 'Sterile Football' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/sterile-football.57660/

The 'COG diary' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/cog-diary.57658/

The infamous 'Fire Sale' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/fire-sale.57527/

The 'Pozzo Out' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/pozzo-out.56308/

and The 'if we lose to Luton I'm writing to the club and not supporting the team anymore' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/if-we-lose-to-luton-and-our-best-players-are-sidelined.57578/

On the happy clappers side we had the 'Genuinely excited for the new season' thread http://wfcforums.com/index.php?thre...son-for-the-first-time-in-3-or-4-years.57504/ and a couple of 'favourite moments' threads, which aren't focused on critiquing or praising the current squad, situation, or owners.


I think we've had a 7 out of 10 transfer window. Not outstanding, but not the disaster it could have been. Managed to keep a very/recruit a strong core of Foster-Kabasele-Ngakia-WTE-Capoue-Hughes-Sarr-Pedro with decent squad depth with players like Cathcart-Femenia-Garner-Cleverley-Chalobah-Gray. Would have been nice to keep Esupinan/Suarez/Doucoure/Deulofeu but it was pretty clear they were adamant on leaving. Also it looks like we've dropped a couple of ******** on bringing in Murray, and failing (so far) to bring in a left-back, with Masina out for longer than it seemed.

The 'COGs' have been saying for a while, let us get to the end of the window and judge us after that. We've managed to get through it and we're in an even better position that most positive fans had anticipated (tongue in cheek HMS PTL posts aside). 3rd in the league, 2 goals conceded after 6 games. Things to work on, as Ivic has mentioned, but definitely reasons to be more cheerful than it usually seems on here. Less said about the toxicity on the shoutbox, the better.

 

I actually don't disagree with any of this - for once!

But I would say that some of the threads you mention above are pretty tongue-in cheek. Some are opening a debate (sterile football) and some were very worth discussing (fire sale) in my opinion. And yes, one or two are a bit stupid as well.

If any 'COG's felt the club was doing something amazingly well, then they had/have every opportunity to start a thread about it. Thats the point of the forum. The fact is no one has fallen over themselves to do so.

I get that some fans find negativity annoying or frustrating - and I have passed comment myself at times on some when I think they go too far with it. But I find some of the OTT positivity equally annoying as its often misplaced in the same way the over-negative comments are.

 

Id agree. Possibly 8 out of 10 and I am excited by the season. But my grumbles about Pozzo aren’t about this window or even transfers in general really. I explained my views in the morning but I guess this is more aimed at general negativity in the here and now.

 

Yep. I don't agree with everything you've said about Pozzo but I can totally see where you're coming from, especially from a financial perspective, and you've put your POV across in a fair and reasoned way

 

With your earlier, very measured post, I understand your views. Thank you for that. Unfortunately it is the nature of communication on boards such as this that the bigger picture get lost. Posts are often reactions to other posts.
I don't comment on the running of the club because I have no knowledge or real understanding of how to run a club. I'm not having a go by saying that. I'm not assuming that because I am ignorant others are too. I don't understand the different business models used in football, especially if you include football in other countries.

One thing that is clear and seems to be agreed by everyone, is the poor communication from the club. That probably comes down to the personalities of the owners so that won't change. From memory we have only had good communication during the GT/SEJ period, but I may be wrong about that.

Finally, I have learnt not to worry about things over which I have no control. There is nothing that I can do about WFC so I just try to enjoy the ride. Over the years it has generally been a good one. I'm stuck with it anyway.

 

Coronavirus has been a hindrance and a help to us thus far, I'm not going to castigate them too much for certain signings (or lack thereof), but likewise I'm not going to credit them too much with holding onto the star players we did keep. Ultimately though, the mess we're in could have been avoided, but by hook or by crook we've got a good chance to get back up, and finally see some of these talented young players we've been meaning to see in earnest for so long!

 

So I think the consensus is that we want the Pozzos to do better, rather than new owners. Unless of course they are better owners.

But in lifetime only twice has an owner sold to someone who turned out to be a better owner. Bonsor to SEJ, and Baz to Gino. And even SEJ sold to someone who was a worst owner.

 

This whole thread is tl:dr

You all take the forum way too seriously

 

With super Ivic's boys tearing up the divisione we're all clappers now.

(Just some aren't all that happy. Each to their own.)

 

Ivic gave you the clap?

 

Don't think we're quite there yet. More "folded it conveniently to fit into the shredder" level at present.

 

I like to play a little guessing game of who's really actually getting seriously annoyed and who's just on the general wind up.

 

Don't fold before you shred, and remember to remove the staples.

Not sure how that relates to our current form.

 

If you didn't read the stuff on this thread, how do you know it's too long?

 

I have never been on shoutbox. Everything I have heard about it makes me never want to go on it in the future.
Besides, I simply don't get people who spend their time texting or gesticulating at the opposition fans, etc, instead of watching the actual football. Things can happen in football so fast you should not take your eyes off it. Their loss, of course, but not mine.

 

Sod the opposition fans the real action is COG v BedWetters #gettingtasty

 

Unless its an arab or asian sovereign wealth fund I’ll stick with Gino thanks very much.

 

Agreed. The paragraphing on this thread is a shambles.

 

When you're listening on the radio it keeps your eyes busy.

Not necessarily your brain.

 

Is there anything more uncomfortable than watching a Bedwetter Brofest LoveIn.

Its like accidentally walking in on your grandparents going at it in your Mum and Dads bed whilst Going Down sits in the corner watching, w@nking and tweeting simultaneously.