West Ham 2-0 Watford FC - 10/02/2018

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by domthehornet, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    He was also a regular scorer in the prem before he joined us !!!!!
     
  2. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Giroud has scored 16 goals since the start of last season, 3 more than Gray. Gray has 6 assists to Giroud's 4. Plus he's now 31, so hardly good value. A good player no doubt, but hardly puts Gray to shame on the goal front

    Not sure how you can so confidently say Chris Wood is a better player than Gray, but opinions I guess. Gabbiadini has scored 3 goals this season.

    The others are expensive gambles, we'll see how they turn out.
     
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Well I think Burnley considered Woods to be better than Gray or else they wouldn't have made the transfer. I've been impressed with Woods since he's gone there. A big strong traditional centre forward. I'm not saying I'm envious, but I think he's a stronger player, and was a little cheaper to sign.

    Giroud is vastly superior to Gray, it's not really worth debating that one, regardless of the stats. He was hardly used at Arsenal, always coming off the bench and scoring big goals against top sides.

    With all the scouting contacts Watford have, all the irons in the fire, it was a little disappointing the best they could find for £18.5m was Andre Gray. This is what I find the hardest thing to understand.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  4. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I’m agreeing with some of the things you say about Gray. But your first point here is moot at best - Burnley sold Gray because he made it clear he wouldn’t be signing a new contract. Then we offered them very good money. I’m not delivering my full verdict on Gray just yet as he hasn’t played enough or found a system he works in - hopefully he will. But we did vastly overspend on the evidence so far. Given how often we can go out and spend £12m on one player (he hasn’t cost us the full amount yet), those players need to prove their worth and almost demand a place in the team. So far Gray is a very expensive squad player who hasn’t yet shown he’s markedly better than what we already had.
     
  5. Ybotcoombes

    Ybotcoombes Justworkedouthowtochange

    I am not a Gray hater but he does seem to have been some what underwhelming when you compare to signings like Rich, Chalobah, Hughes , however he has managed to last the season without being injured.

    Said many times before but is the problem really Gray or the fact that we just don’t play in a way that suits him
     
  6. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I keep reading on here that Gray has only cost the club £12m, plus add-ons, but I've not found evidence that this is correct. Every report I've read states that Gray cost a club record fee of £18.5m. Even the official web site is saying it's a club record fee.

    https://www.watfordfc.com/teams/first-team/andre-gray
    http://www.transfermarkt.com/andre-gray/profil/spieler/120565
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...m-deal-burnley-striker-andre-gray-could-make/
    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...fer-with-football-manager-video-a3608051.html

    I'm not saying that it isn't a deal made up of add-ons, but I cannot find any evidence to support this.
     
  7. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    It's £12/13m plus addons, but never mind...

    Woods has scored the same amount of goals as Gray, with no assists. Its not like they've improved on him.

    Southampton are regarded to be pretty savvy in the transfer market, yet Gabbiadini has flopped, and judging by Carrillo's performance yesterday, they aren't going to see much back from the £20m they paid for him.
     
  8. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Or could the problem be the fact that he couldn't hit a cow's ar5e with a banjo?
     
    Ybotcoombes likes this.
  9. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Sky Sports were the source at the time of his move.

    http://www.skysports.com/football/n...rd-agree-deal-to-sign-andre-gray-from-burnley

    Various other publications just parrot that line.
     
  10. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Yes, I remember that one now, but it was before the actual signing. One source said £11.5m while another two said £18m. Seems a little bit woolly to me. I think you have to go by what the official site says, and it's clear they say it's a club record deal.

    I think it's probable that the deal has some add-ons, but £6m worth seems very high in a deal like this. I think the base fee was a lot higher than £12.5m, as many have quoted on here.

    The only way to know for sure, is if the club publish their accounts for this season.
     
  11. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    Gray scored 7 outfield goals in the PL last season, 3 of which came in one match against the bottom side Sunderland. So he was hardly prolific even then.
     
  12. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    No, the other two said it 'could rise to as much as £18m'. ie. There will be add ons to the initial fee.

    As for the club, well who really knows anything in these days of undisclosed fees? A record signing is much more likely to sell shirts than a 'might become our record signing on a random Tuesday in January 2019 if certain events happen'!

    There's no actual way to know for sure.
     
    Chumlax likes this.
  13. Hornet4ever

    Hornet4ever WFC Forums Last Man Standing Winner 2018/2019

    Too simplistic, there were a few add on milestones + Girouds wages will be alot higher.

    We could quite easily sell him for 10-12m back to Burnley or one of the teams that come up. Don't be too surprised if that happens in the summer. Will probably end up pretty much being a no lose gamble signing.

    Pozzo's never lose money easily. Everything done with protection & a nice smile or a horses head in the morning. Capeesh.
     
  14. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Does it really matter? There's no point making out we're the only side who is paying 4x what a striker is worth, as all the teams around us have done the exact same thing
     
  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    The main point to me is, what made the club think "wow" we must make this guy our record signing? What did they see in him which made them unlock the vault to such a degree?

    There was nothing to suggest he'd score plenty of goals, as the previous season at Burnley he didn't set the world alight.

    I'm talking in Watford terms here, not in general football terms, but £18.5m represents a huge outlay for a club like Watford. Why did the board think he's worth that heavy investment. It's just a bit strange to me that they thought this.
     
    Malteser and WillisWasTheWorst like this.
  16. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Gray was meant to be part of the hungry English player signings we all wanted from the club. That means extra price for home grown. He hasn't performed well. He hasn't been treated that well either. He may well move on but at least the club will have learnt from this.
     
    dynamo380 likes this.
  17. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    You are ignoring the fact that every club around us has spent the same or more on strikers this season, with none of them having done anything of note.

    It is not a big outlay for us. As has been pointed out before numerous times, we can happily make our money back on him. I don't think the same can be said about Locadia, Tosun, Gabbiadini, Carrillo if they don't work out.

    If you have any suggestions as to who we should have bought instead I'd love to hear them.
     
  18. Goal hanger

    Goal hanger Beyond Belief

    I assume you realise he's got 4 goals and 2 assists in 12 starts in the prem, so he's scored or assisting in every other game that he's started. That first touch must really annoy you.
     
    EB Hornet likes this.
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    As I keep saying and you're ignoring, it's not so much the signing, just the reason behind why we thought a club record fee should be spent on him.

    To use other club's activities as your example is pointless, as Watford do things differently and stand out from the rest. Let the others make the expensive mistakes.

    Had we spent £18.5m on Richarlison, for example, I could understand it. The club would be backing their talent spotters and signed a raw talent. The fact we got him even cheaper than that is great.

    We knew what we were getting with Gray, so I find it strange the large fee was signed off by the club.
     
  20. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    That would help but looking at the 2016 accounts they lumped all £64.4m of purchases together-no reference to players or amounts. Even on sales that year they amalgamated the £5.6m profit between the sales of Layun, Hogg, Forestieri and others. I imagine the Pozzo's keep all that granular detail to themselves. It must be commercially sensitive.

    That the media like to total as much as possible into "bombshell" headlines on player transfers is a sad fact of life
     
  21. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    He's played a total of 1234 competitive minutes for Watford this season. That works out to a goal every 3.43 matches, which isn't that great.

    People can twist and turn it whichever way they like, but he's not a clinical finisher, and doesn't get into a scoring position often enough. He misses far too many good chances. Those 1 v 1's, those heavy touches, those swing of the boot and misses the ball completely, although he did get an assist when one of those went to Hughes to score against West Ham.

    It's a shame as I would like to see him succeed, but I don't think he will.
     
  22. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    No-one who has a first touch that would be an embarrassment down the rec. on a Sunday morning has any place in the Premier League.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  23. Goal hanger

    Goal hanger Beyond Belief


    Anything around 1 in 3 is good in the prem. You cite a swing and miss and some bad first touches, but ignore the assists, and good moments like a great ball played into Doucoure v Stoke. I'm no great fan of Gray, but can we please leave the hysterical judgements for the relegation thread.
     
    jw- and Lloyd like this.
  24. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    I never take anything you say seriously and im not starting now lol
     
  25. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    I think too many people are hung up about how much Gray may or may not have cost. That's up to the board and the player.
    The point myself and others like Knight are saying is that we are scratching our heads that currently we have a striker playing who is immobile and cannot score in open play to a player who can but who is relegated to the bench when he does score. And we could do with some pace and occasional goals from the front man to help us stay up. We cant just rely on getting a penalty each game.
     
    EB Hornet, jw- and Knight GT like this.
  26. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Well thanks for that depressing nugget. I know Forestieri's probably not really a Premier League player but I'd love to see that little scamp coming on as a sub instead of Jerome Despair.
     
  27. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Point taken.
    OK - ideally. But really the transfer business is a mix of judgement, timing, personalities, irrational emotions, wheeling and dealing, and of course money. And that's probably just the short list. Very difficult, in other words.
     
  28. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    I strongly suspect this was much more important than people recognise. Considering he was appearing like this at the height of his success with us reinforces that idea. There was something going on there.
     
  29. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    And Danny Graham?
     
  30. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Why would he want to do that? It might break the banjo.
     
  31. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Steady.
     
    PhilippineOrn likes this.
  32. Ybotcoombes

    Ybotcoombes Justworkedouthowtochange

    Yep that is very possible
     
  33. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Maybe playing for Derby has humbled him? He's almost certainly matured since he was last with us
     
  34. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    £18.5m...again with this. Never mind.

    You describe his transfer as an 'expensive mistake', when many have pointed out that we will lose next to nothing. IF he doesn't succeed here, then we simply sell him to one of the many willing buyers in the Championship, or a team like Wolves (who were interested in him along with us). Gino sanctioned the deal knowing its poor value, but ultimately not concerned as its a safe investment. If the very worst happened this season, then I would happily have Gray in our side to fire us back up - how much is that worth?

    Southampton are renouned as pretty decent in the market, and yet Gabbiadini has flopped, and they simply can't get rid of him. They've signed Carrillo, who's scoring record is abysmal, for £20m. Burnley, seeminglly allergic to spending big amounts of money, went out and spent £15m on Chris Wood. Its the market we are in - teams expect big money for their strikers.

    Rashford has scored 4 in 1327 minutes at Utd this season, I wonder how much he would cost?
     
  35. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Well £18.5m was the reported cost of the transfer in virtually every media outlet, including the official site. I guess you know the exact make-up of this particular deal? Or are your sources this forum, as this is the only place where I see that figure disputed. Never mind.
     

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