Keele charges maximum tuition fee from 2012...

[PotGuy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-13024559

As everyone already knew, just about every university will be charging £9000, even crap ones like Keele.

Spoke to one of my lecturers a few weeks ago for quite a while, found out that they were looking at well over £6k just to break even, and that is with 20% redundancies across the board.

I think that will pretty much be the end of widespread university education.

[Hornmeister]

Too many people are going to University these days.

In the past people didn't do journalism or media studies degrees, they worked they way up from local papers, local radio to TV etc.

Now people spend £30,000 to get a journalism degree and then can't get a job at a local paper.

We need to go back to workplace learning, apprenticeships and sponsored sandwich courses and not expect people who are working hard for a living to fund a three year jolly with little prospect of employment at the end of it.

I'm all for 100% funded by the tax payer degree courses for the subjects that are needed by the workplace and for the most able of students, regardless of their own financial background, but this does need to be limited, far more than it has been in the past.

[afanof]

I'm all for 100% funded by the tax payer degree courses for the subjects that are needed by the workplace

You have no soul.

[PotGuy]

Too many people are going to University these days.

In the past people didn't do journalism or media studies degrees, they worked they way up from local papers, local radio to TV etc.

Now people spend £30,000 to get a journalism degree and then can't get a job at a local paper.

We need to go back to workplace learning, apprenticeships and sponsored sandwich courses and not expect people who are working hard for a living to fund a three year jolly with little prospect of employment at the end of it.

I'm all for 100% funded by the tax payer degree courses for the subjects that are needed by the workplace and for the most able of students, regardless of their own financial background, but this does need to be limited, far more than it has been in the past.

Exactly right. That is precisely the system that is needed. Although I do think students should be a proportion of their degree - <£2k of it mind.

That is not Cameron's system though.

In Cameron's system, everyone will carry on being funnelled into idiotic, useless degrees through a school system where everybody gets high enough grades to qualify for university, but at no cost to his government.

It hides the unemployment figures while at the same time making his budget look far better.

In the long run, we all lose.

[Hornmeister]

You have no soul.

We can't afford to have a soul.


Exactly right. That is precisely the system that is needed. Although I do think students should be a proportion of their degree - <£2k of it mind.

That is not Cameron's system though.

In Cameron's system, everyone will carry on being funnelled into idiotic, useless degrees through a school system where everybody gets high enough grades to qualify for university, but at no cost to his government.

It hides the unemployment figures while at the same time making his budget look far better.

In the long run, we all lose.

I'm not so sure about students paying for fees. Strictly speaking a higher educated person should command a higher salary and would pay for the degree by paying more tax over their lifetime.

I'm fed up of extra taxes for this, rebates for that mentalities. Theses schemes just exist to overcomplicate things and to give tax advisers a job. They exist because the fundamental tax system is wrong and are in place to tinker with it to try and get a bit more fairness.

There's no denying that having more students improves the unemployment figures but it is a temporary measure which only delays the inevitable.

[wfcmoog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-13024559

As everyone already knew, just about every university will be charging £9000, even crap ones like Keele.

Spoke to one of my lecturers a few weeks ago for quite a while, found out that they were looking at well over £6k just to break even, and that is with 20% redundancies across the board.

I think that will pretty much be the end of widespread university education.

£9000 is just a number. Students won't have to pay it back until they graduate and are earning above the average wage.

Even then, it's only peanuts per month.

[99mph]

I think I said this last time but when I was at Uni, I was thankful for all the students doing the rubbish degrees as their tuition fees subsidised the cost of my course (Aerospace Engineering)

[Berkohorn]

I think I said this last time but when I was at Uni, I was thankful for all the students doing the rubbish degrees as their tuition fees subsidised the cost of my course (Aerospace Engineering)

Hi 99MPH, where did you do your degree and has it been a problem finding work? My son (doing GCSE's this Summer) want to study maths, further maths, physics and chemistry at A level and then Mech Eng or Aerospace Eng at Uni. He wants to work in the auto racing business (target is F1 race engineer) and has done work experience with Red Bull Racing and works for Fortec Motorsport in his spare time. If you prefer to PM that is fine.

Sorry for hijacking thread!!!

[wfcmoog]

Hi 99MPH, where did you do your degree and has it been a problem finding work? My son (doing GCSE's this Summer) want to study maths, further maths, physics and chemistry at A level and then Mech Eng or Aerospace Eng at Uni. He wants to work in the auto racing business (target is F1 race engineer) and has done work experience with Red Bull Racing and works for Fortec Motorsport in his spare time. If you prefer to PM that is fine.

Sorry for hijacking thread!!!

Surely it can't be hard to find work? If nobody will employ you, you can go self employed, like Hugo Drax.

[inayellowshirt]

Hornmeister talks a lot of sense (because I agree with him)

too many people treat Uni as a 3 year jolly. You can be successfull by simply leaving school at the end and knuckling down to work.

[TheDon]

I'm looking to do a media production course. ;D

[PotGuy]

£9000 is just a number. Students won't have to pay it back until they graduate and are earning above the average wage.

Even then, it's only peanuts per month.

I'm all right Jack, eh?

Its a £36,000 debt moog, including maintenance loans.

[wfcmoog]

I'm all right Jack, eh?

Its a £36,000 debt moog, including maintenance loans.

None of that is a relevant retort to my post.

It's not a debt in the same sense as a mortgage or personal loan, because you only have to pay it back when you are earning enough to comfortably afford to. You won't be made bankrupt if you leave university and take some time to get to a higher earning bracket, because the repayments won't kick in until you do.

What part of that is so hard for today's higher education applicants to get their heads around?

[Birdydoug]

Does that amount include the gap year in upper moogoloia or is that in addition

[PotGuy]

None of that is a relevant retort to my post.

It's not a debt in the same sense as a mortgage or personal loan, because you only have to pay it back when you are earning enough to comfortably afford to. You won't be made bankrupt if you leave university and take some time to get to a higher earning bracket, because the repayments won't kick in until you do.

What part of that is so hard for today's higher education applicants to get their heads around?

I'm well aware how it is paid back. Just because it is paid back slowly, doesn't magically reduce the amount that is paid back. You are still losing £36,000 in exchange for next to nothing - or at least far less that people have been receiving until now! They are paying twice as much as I have done for a vastly reduced university budget, and £36000 more than Cameron and co paid for theirs.

The payment system is a million miles better than the one I am going to be using, I have no problem with that and never indicated I did.

I have a problem with the government, who are continuing the policy of encouraging all and sundry to go to university to take up golf course management and parading university as the only 'correct' route, but at no cost to themselves.

It is the perfect system for them, where they can blab on in the elections about how x% of the population are going to university and how good the budget looks, while crippling those who do with an absolutely ridiculous level of debt and a further devalued degree where teaching quality has been severely reduced due to mass redundancies.

What needed to be done was to cull the university culture and open up, or at least vastly improve, other avenues of further education. Instead, they have washed their hands of it completely, which was the easy, pathetic path to take.

I think 'I'm all right Jack' appears to sum up your opinion on tuition fees to be honest. If you were actually facing a £36,000 debt as a 17 year old, in return for a severely reduced service which was received for free by those in power and double what was already being charged, you wouldn't be so aloof about it.

[luke_golden]

Just move abroad and never pay a penny back, like me.

Cheers taxpayers!

[afanof]

Just move abroad and never pay a penny back, like me.

Cheers taxpayers!

What to do if you move abroad
If at any time you move abroad, you're expected to inform the SLC so you can make repayments directly to it (usually by direct debit). Different repayment thresholds apply in different countries, depending on their national average earnings and typical living costs, so you must provide details of your new salary (see the SLC website's country by country details).

Repayments will be deducted in pounds sterling and you'd be responsible for any costs involved in converting the currency.

There are severe penalties if you move overseas and don't tell the SLC, or for not providing the information it requests to be able to deduct repayments from your salary. Penalties include applying repayments based on an income equal to twice the UK average earnings, and even - in the most extreme cases - demanding you repay the total loan in one go.

[luke_golden]

We'll see if they ever find me then!

[matimbers]

We'll see if they ever find me then!

I work for the SLC Luke!

[luke_golden]

I work for the SLC Luke!

Best be moving to another state then!

[wfcmoog]

I'm well aware how it is paid back. Just because it is paid back slowly, doesn't magically reduce the amount that is paid back. You are still losing £36,000 in exchange for next to nothing - or at least far less that people have been receiving until now! They are paying twice as much as I have done for a vastly reduced university budget, and £36000 more than Cameron and co paid for theirs.

The payment system is a million miles better than the one I am going to be using, I have no problem with that and never indicated I did.

I have a problem with the government, who are continuing the policy of encouraging all and sundry to go to university to take up golf course management and parading university as the only 'correct' route, but at no cost to themselves.

It is the perfect system for them, where they can blab on in the elections about how x% of the population are going to university and how good the budget looks, while crippling those who do with an absolutely ridiculous level of debt and a further devalued degree where teaching quality has been severely reduced due to mass redundancies.

What needed to be done was to cull the university culture and open up, or at least vastly improve, other avenues of further education. Instead, they have washed their hands of it completely, which was the easy, pathetic path to take.

I think 'I'm all right Jack' appears to sum up your opinion on tuition fees to be honest. If you were actually facing a £36,000 debt as a 17 year old, in return for a severely reduced service which was received for free by those in power and double what was already being charged, you wouldn't be so aloof about it.

I think "you're an idiot" sums up your opinion on the subject.

Nobody makes anyone go and study golf course management. If someone goes to study that, then the least they can do is bear the burden financially/

If "I'm alright Jack" it's not an exclusive club. Anyone else who wants to be "alright Jack" can either go to university, graduate with a strong degree and then pay back the debt at a pittance per month, whilst earning the increased salary which their education has allowed them access to, or they can cut out university and start working.

You bemoan the frivolous courses which people are taking, yet you disagree with a system which can only lead to people considering more seriously whether or not they are going to go to university, to take on the debt burden. If they are going with a view to getting a good degree and then a good salary, then they will be fine. If they are going for a 3 year p1ss up, studying kite design, then they might well think otherwise.

How else is the government to persuade 18 year olds that meaningless university attendance is not sustainable? By printing some leaflets?

You also bemoan the quality of the teaching and facilities at universities and their recent decline. How on earth do you expect universities to improve their offering? Government funding? Are you aware of what's been going on in the world for the past 2 years?

The only way that the Universities can improve their standards, is by improving their funding and the only way they can do that, is to raise their fees. Some universities may be taking the mickey by raising their fees to the top level for poor courses with poor records, but they will eventually struggle to recruit and will either have to raise standards or lower prices.

None of this is particularly complicated and I'd imagine that anyone could figure it out for themselves, if they took the self interest of being a student or the parent of a student out of the equation.

[afanof]

I think the point is, moog, that no matter how gradually it is paid back it's still £36k plus interest that you don't get to spend on something else and £36k which neither you nor I had to pay for our degrees. However reasonable it may seem in current circumstances it's just another financial burden that is being heaped on a generation that is going to be carrying huge financial burdens not of their making.

[wfcmoog]

I think the point is, moog, that no matter how gradually it is paid back it's still £36k plus interest that you don't get to spend on something else and £36k which neither you nor I had to pay for our degrees. However reasonable it may seem in current circumstances it's just another financial burden that is being heaped on a generation that is going to be carrying huge financial burdens not of their making.

I see that, but I don't know what you or Potguy expect anyone to do about it?

We are where we are.

I don't have a degree, by the way, but thanks for thinking that I might.

[afanof]

I see that, but I don't know what you or Potguy expect anyone to do about it?

We are where we are.

I don't have a degree, by the way, but thanks for thinking that I might.

What I'd like is for students to be able to have a fully justified moan about it without having their degrees belittled or being told to shut up and be grateful as it's not 'proper' debt.

I'm confused. I thought you gave Y&P advice on Classics at UCL when he was making his choices?

Edit - I believe it was Kings not UCL

[Hornmeister]

I think the point is, moog, that no matter how gradually it is paid back it's still £36k plus interest that you don't get to spend on something else and £36k which neither you nor I had to pay for our degrees. However reasonable it may seem in current circumstances it's just another financial burden that is being heaped on a generation that is going to be carrying huge financial burdens not of their making.

Yes we did have to pay for it, in taxes and so did the people who didn't benefit from the education, hardly fair is it?

The previous government took your taxes and decided to spend them several times over, in a time of prosperity, selling our complete gold reserve (rainy day fund) at the lowest price in decades. In effect they consolidated all of their debts into one impossible to manage deficit and then the financial sector went tits up and we were pretty much bankrupted having to bail out average joe on the street who's savings had been disappeared through no fault of their own.

I'm all for education and funding degrees for people and the country to better them selves, but we've got 3 quid left and I'd rather fund the health service and primary & secondary education as a priority over little Johnny's degree in Dr Who studies.

[afanof]

Yes we did have to pay for it, in taxes and so did the people who didn't benefit from the education, hardly fair is it?

No you didn't. Graduates didn't pay any more tax than anyone else in the same tax braket.

The previous government took your taxes and decided to spend them several times over, in a time of prosperity, selling our complete gold reserve (rainy day fund) at the lowest price in decades. In effect they consolidated all of their debts into one impossible to manage deficit and then the financial sector went tits up and we were pretty much bankrupted having to bail out average joe on the street who's savings had been disappeared through no fault of their own.

This was all done by people who didn't have to pay for their degrees and now they are making young people bear the cost.

I'm all for education and funding degrees for people and the country to better them selves, but we've got 3 quid left and I'd rather fund the health service and primary & secondary education as a priority over little Johnny's degree in Dr Who studies.

Right now we seem to be able to afford to spend millions on safeguarding Libyan citizens and it's these kids who are going to be paying for it all in future. Let them have a moan. They undoubtedly have a worse deal all round than the previous generation who benefited from free universities, low house prices and high inflation that took care of the debt, final salary pensions schemes etc.

[RussWatford]

Yes we did have to pay for it, in taxes and so did the people who didn't benefit from the education, hardly fair is it?

The previous government took your taxes and decided to spend them several times over, in a time of prosperity, selling our complete gold reserve (rainy day fund) at the lowest price in decades. In effect they consolidated all of their debts into one impossible to manage deficit and then the financial sector went tits up and we were pretty much bankrupted having to bail out average joe on the street who's savings had been disappeared through no fault of their own.

I'm all for education and funding degrees for people and the country to better them selves, but we've got 3 quid left and I'd rather fund the health service and primary & secondary education as a priority over little Johnny's degree in Dr Who studies.

As a KS2/3 teacher in training, I can assure you that they are not being funded, but entirely the opposite.

[lm_wfc]

Hi 99MPH, where did you do your degree and has it been a problem finding work? My son (doing GCSE's this Summer) want to study maths, further maths, physics and chemistry at A level and then Mech Eng or Aerospace Eng at Uni. He wants to work in the auto racing business (target is F1 race engineer) and has done work experience with Red Bull Racing and works for Fortec Motorsport in his spare time. If you prefer to PM that is fine.

Sorry for hijacking thread!!!

Your sons gonna be be pretty sorted, I still dont have anything that good on my cv and im in my 2nd year doing mechanical engineering.

As long as he gets good a levels, with those subjects and the work experience he shouldnt have trouble getting into a good uni/course. I go to bath, and there alot of people with better cv's than mine doing placements at F1 teams, they're hard work and low paid due to the demand, but it'd eb worth it in the end.

he could also look at automotive engineering, which normally gives you an opportunity to do formula student, which will always look good when applying to f1 teams.

But you said your sons not even done gcse's yet, I wouldnt worry at all.

[PotGuy]

Whatever moog.

[Hornmeister]

no you didn't. Graduates didn't pay any more tax than anyone else in the same tax braket.

But on average graduates earned more and therefore paid more tax.

On Libya we agree. I'm all for humanitarian intervention but that's where it stops. Let's sort our own house out before we start tidying up other peoples.

[wfcmoog]

What I'd like is for students to be able to have a fully justified moan about it without having their degrees belittled or being told to shut up and be grateful as it's not 'proper' debt.

I'm confused. I thought you gave Y&P advice on Classics at UCL when he was making his choices?

Edit - I believe it was Kings not UCL

Some people deserve their degrees to be belittled. I think the fact that they may have to pay towards them in later life may make young people think harder about going to university. Better that, in my view, than they be encouraged to go off and learn from their mistakes at tax payers expense. Yes it may seem unfair that generations in the 1980s got not only fees paid, but maintenance grants too, but that's not the world we live in.

It's about the nicest possible debt it could possibly be. Moaning without any viable alternative is just annoying and pointless. If people are going to moan about something which is clearly the best possible solution to the current problem, they invite being told to shut up in my view.

I advised Y&P not to go to Kings to do Classics, but I think he went against my advice, which I quite understand.

[PotGuy]

Some people deserve their degrees to be belittled. I think the fact that they may have to pay towards them in later life may make young people think harder about going to university. Better that, in my view, than they be encouraged to go off and learn from their mistakes at tax payers expense. Yes it may seem unfair that generations in the 1980s got not only fees paid, but maintenance grants too, but that's not the world we live in.

It's about the nicest possible debt it could possibly be. Moaning without any viable alternative is just annoying and pointless. If people are going to moan about something which is clearly the best possible solution to the current problem, they invite being told to shut up in my view.

I advised Y&P not to go to Kings to do Classics, but I think he went against my advice, which I quite understand.

So lets say tomorrow, el governmento decides to double the amount taxed from whatever your tax bracket is, and it passes through parliament without opposition.

There is nothing you can do about it. Do you just sit around and accept it? I could surely tell you to shut up - I don't pay tax, it doesn't affect me.

[afanof]

We'll see if they ever find me then!

They'll be waiting for you at passport control when you come back to see the 'Orns play.

[fan]

They'll be waiting for you at passport control when you come back to see the 'Orns play.

i can tell you from experience that will not happen.

[fan]

and apparently people in the past were allowed to keep slaves, by the prevailing logic on this thread its an outrage i'm not cotton self-sufficient today

[wfcmoog]

So lets say tomorrow, el governmento decides to double the amount taxed from whatever your tax bracket is, and it passes through parliament without opposition.

There is nothing you can do about it. Do you just sit around and accept it? I could surely tell you to shut up - I don't pay tax, it doesn't affect me.

OK, I'll indulge you. What should I do instead of accept it?

I'd move abroad, but assuming I didn't, what should I do? Post about it on the internet?

[afanof]

I'd move abroad, but assuming I didn't, what should I do? Post about it on the internet?

Absolutely. It's an effective and harmless way of venting. It won't change anything but you might find other people who feel the same and having opinions validated always makes a person feel better.

[PotGuy]

OK, I'll indulge you. What should I do instead of accept it?

I'd move abroad, but assuming I didn't, what should I do? Post about it on the internet?

I'm assuming that is exactly what you would do to be honest. You would find like minded people and try and force a change through protest or whatever. Even if it is fruitless, it is worth trying.

Where is the democracy in a country where you have to move abroad if you disagree with the government?

I have every right to complain about it.

[afanof]

I'm assuming that is exactly what you would do to be honest. You would find like minded people and try and force a change through protest or whatever. Even if it is fruitless, it is worth trying.

Where is the democracy in a country where you have to move abroad if you disagree with the government?

I have every right to complain about it.

Well said!

[wfcmoog]

I'm assuming that is exactly what you would do to be honest. You would find like minded people and try and force a change through protest or whatever. Even if it is fruitless, it is worth trying.

Where is the democracy in a country where you have to move abroad if you disagree with the government?

I have every right to complain about it.

But you don't though. You're the last person with that right as I see it.

Not only are you not being asked to pay the fees, but you say yourself, you don't pay any taxes to fund the impractical alternative.

So shut up and mind your own business.

[wfcmoog]

I should have add a ;) to the above, as it seems a bit aggro, which is not my intention.

[PotGuy]

But you don't though. You're the last person with that right as I see it.

Not only are you not being asked to pay the fees, but you say yourself, you don't pay any taxes to fund the impractical alternative.

So shut up and mind your own business.

Its only through blind luck I won't have to pay the fee hike - if I was born two years later I would. It doesn't mean that I can't sympathise with those who are going to have to pay them!

I'll be paying taxes from this year though, so it will be my problem very soon.

You have to remember that over 70% of Swedes go to university and get a degree - often a four year course in fact - that is entirely funded by the state. It is not a necessity that degrees need to be funded at all by individuals at all, let alone the whole thing.

It is the easy choice to go after students, because many people consider that they should be 'grateful for what they get, lazy canuts. Taking money out of my pocket to do ***** all'. As far as the general population is concerned students have less rights than a normal taxpayer.

It is far easier to wash your hands of the situation by blaming the students for the structure of education system that they go through, than actually try and sort out what is a completely out of control, ridiculous higher education system. There are very few alternatives to university if you don't want to leave school at 16. There are very few workplace or apprenticeship opportunities. If you are academically capable at all, you are encouraged to go to university by the system and everybody in it!

Unless you live in a Sweden, where people believe that you will pay for your degree through your taxes, such a system cannot work.

I think the only result of this will be a mass exodus of students abroad, which will probably raise domestic fees further, as university costs are now going to be outsourced directly to students, and kill the local economies around non-city universities.

As far as I am concerned, this is the impractical solution. It is the easy option to take, where they can enjoy the benefits of something of a social-democratic system of higher education with no costs to themselves. The problem is, the graduates will then be crippled by debt which will prevent them from spending in the future!




I think I may give up at this point. We aren't going to agree, and you for some reason have decided I have no right to an opinion on it, so I think I'll leave it alone now. Ciao.

[Smudger]

Too many people are going to University these days.

In the past people didn't do journalism or media studies degrees, they worked they way up from local papers, local radio to TV etc.

Now people spend £30,000 to get a journalism degree and then can't get a job at a local paper.

We need to go back to workplace learning, apprenticeships and sponsored sandwich courses and not expect people who are working hard for a living to fund a three year jolly with little prospect of employment at the end of it.

I'm all for 100% funded by the tax payer degree courses for the subjects that are needed by the workplace and for the most able of students, regardless of their own financial background, but this does need to be limited, far more than it has been in the past.

Well said meister. :sign15: It would also help if academic studies were made much more rigorous too.

The standard of spoken English for one. It is utterly appalling.

[alip01]

I think the only result of this will be a mass exodus of students abroad, which will probably raise domestic fees further, as university costs are now going to be outsourced directly to students, and kill the local economies around non-city universities.

Yeah to Scotland! :rant:

Can't believe they still get free uni, and to rub it in the EU decided that Scotland have to offer free courses to anyone in the EU, but not if they come from England, in which case they have to pay.