Two interesting employee positions at WFC ~ What do they do?

[Torontotimmy]

Here is a letter just sent to:
Michael Jones ~ Head of Venue & customer Experience
Paddy Flavin ~ Project Management
cc Mark Ashton

Dear Sirs,

As a life long supporter of Watford Football Club, I concerned at a seeming lack of management control and awareness & quiet clearly the poor & unacceptable dissemination of information surrounding the enabling works to facilitate the demolition of the East stand.

As a Vice President of Facilities Management responsible for an organisation that runs projects worth millions every year I am at a loss to understand how we can get to virtually the eve of the new season before you recognise and announce that the planned summer works would not be completed in time for the new season.

I have looked at the web sites of many Championship clubs over the past few days and realise that at Watford the board has clearly dedicated sufficient resources in providing two posts with a specific responsibility for the stadium with Project Management & Head of Venue and Customer Experience positions clearly engaged to ensure situations such as this do not go off the rails in the manner that has now occurred.
To be in a situation where the club finds itself unable to identify just where the players will change before the first home game is in my mind more than 'unfortunate timing' as described by Mr. Simpson, to me, it appears to be crass bad management.
However, I would welcome your response and you identifying to me why bad management, poor contract supervision and inadequate and or conflicting media and shareholder communication is not the issue here.

I would be grateful if you could provide questions to the following:

1. Am I correct in assuming that your original specification & tender documentation specified a time frame for completion of key or critical areas?
2. Was the criticality of these time frames discussed at pre contract award meetings, were you happy that the successful contractor fully understood & had the sufficient resources & expertise to deliver in accordance with the required time frames?
3. Did you agree and document with the main contractor in advance a project plan that delivered critical stages of the project in a time frame geared to accommodate the needs of the football team and heaven forbid the supporters?
4. How often did you hold project meetings to verify the progress to schedule?
5. When did anyone at the club realise deadlines would not be met?
6. Did your contract contain penalty clauses (liquidated andassertained damages) for gaining recompense and; offsetting additional costs borne by the club in the event of the contractor’s non delivery of critical components? Have you invoked those clauses and can we be assured that the costs of any temporary accommodation will be borne by the contractor?
7. Why did the Watfordfc web site carry an article on 2nd July talking very favorably of the progress when it must have been obvious that the works would not have been completed in time for the start of the season?
8. Why was the club not open with shareholders, supporters & media in disseminating this information in a speedy manner?
9. Who at Watford Football Club is taking accountability for these problems & is it fair to assume lessons have been learnt & will not be repeated?
I look forward to your response

Sincerely

Tim Whitehouse

Vancouver Island. British Columbia.
Canada

[wfc4ever]

Paddy has been at the club for years I think and probably does a good job in his match day role.

He is probably about the only employeee around before the current board came in still at the club.

They have only just got the health and safety report regarding the useage of the East stand so could not make decisions earlier when they were not aware of if the stand woul be able to be used or not?

Should have the club checked earlier is the question that maybe need asking?

[Birdydoug]

Good letter and hope you get a good answer, to have the likes of any professional team have to change in a portacabin is just plain embarrassing, We will be chastised by the the press.

[afanof]

Full marks for pomposity.

[Torontotimmy]

Paddy has been at the club for years I think and probably does a good job in his match day role.

He is probably about the only employeee around before the current board came in still at the club.

They have only just got the health and safety report regarding the useage of the East stand so could not make decisions earlier when they were not aware of if the stand woul be able to be used or not?

Should have the club checked earlier is the question that maybe need asking?

WFC ~ You're too kind! We are talking about a major public facility here, do you really think this c*** up is outside the control of a Facilities professional? You do my profession a disservice if you think this was beyond their control:o

Anyway, your comments do not alter the facts that you do not run a major public facility & get surprised by a Health & safety report or not notice that you don't have a contingency plan!

The H&S report is only an government employee walking round the facility with the health & safety regulations which should be known by EVERYONE in a management position for a major building or facility.
The report did not make up rules that WFC could not have known about, they employed 2 so called professionals, and they don't know the Health & Safety Regulations & could not hire a consultant either........do me a favour!

[UEA_Hornet]

Did you send it by snail mail Tim? Because I have a feeling it'll be read by the club long before the jet gets it across the pond...

[wfc4ever]

I agree plans should be in place incase of such an event occuring and maybe the club needed to check much earlier in the Pre-season.

I was not aware the 2 people you talk about did not have a chat about the circumstances of not passing health/safety requirements?

Hope you get answers to your concerns though.

I personally cannot see any East stand being built unless we get takenover for a long long time!

[Torontotimmy]

Did you send it by snail mail Tim? Because I have a feeling it'll be read by the club long before the jet gets it across the pond...

Yes, I sent it by e mail first then posted here, there are no questions in there that either my company president or my customers would not have asked me so I didn't think it unfair or pompous as a certain of our erstwhile colleagues would proclaim!

[afanof]

I wouldn't read beyond the errors in the first sentence.

[fan]

this cat's got claws

[Torontotimmy]

I wouldn't read beyond the errors in the first sentence.

I think you meant couldn't.

Just because you don't have the brains, intelligence or passion to do anything yourself you should try not to be so critical of others who do!

[hornetmaster]

Here is a letter just sent to:
Michael Jones ~ Head of Venue & customer Experience
Paddy Flavin ~ Project Management
cc Mark Ashton

Dear Sirs,

As a life long supporter of Watford Football Club, I concerned at a seeming lack of management control and awareness & quiet clearly the poor & unacceptable dissemination of information surrounding the enabling works to facilitate the demolition of the East stand.

As a Vice President of Facilities Management responsible for an organisation that runs projects worth millions every year I am at a loss to understand how we can get to virtually the eve of the new season before you recognise and announce that the planned summer works would not be completed in time for the new season.

I have looked at the web sites of many Championship clubs over the past few days and realise that at Watford the board has clearly dedicated sufficient resources in providing two posts with a specific responsibility for the stadium with Project Management & Head of Venue and Customer Experience positions clearly engaged to ensure situations such as this do not go off the rails in the manner that has now occurred.
To be in a situation where the club finds itself unable to identify just where the players will change before the first home game is in my mind more than 'unfortunate timing' as described by Mr. Simpson, to me, it appears to be crass bad management.
However, I would welcome your response and you identifying to me why bad management, poor contract supervision and inadequate and or conflicting media and shareholder communication is not the issue here.

I would be grateful if you could provide questions to the following:

1. Am I correct in assuming that your original specification & tender documentation specified a time frame for completion of key or critical areas?
2. Was the criticality of these time frames discussed at pre contract award meetings, were you happy that the successful contractor fully understood & had the sufficient resources & expertise to deliver in accordance with the required time frames?
3. Did you agree and document with the main contractor in advance a project plan that delivered critical stages of the project in a time frame geared to accommodate the needs of the football team and heaven forbid the supporters?
4. How often did you hold project meetings to verify the progress to schedule?
5. When did anyone at the club realise deadlines would not be met?
6. Did your contract contain penalty clauses (liquidated andassertained damages) for gaining recompense and; offsetting additional costs borne by the club in the event of the contractor’s non delivery of critical components? Have you invoked those clauses and can we be assured that the costs of any temporary accommodation will be borne by the contractor?
7. Why did the Watfordfc web site carry an article on 2nd July talking very favorably of the progress when it must have been obvious that the works would not have been completed in time for the start of the season?
8. Why was the club not open with shareholders, supporters & media in disseminating this information in a speedy manner?
9. Who at Watford Football Club is taking accountability for these problems & is it fair to assume lessons have been learnt & will not be repeated?
I look forward to your response

Sincerely

Tim Whitehouse

Vancouver Island. British Columbia.
Canada

It will be interesting Tim if they reply that:

The budget is `a trifle squeezed at present`, which has resulted in rescheduling certain non income enhancing elements of the comprehensive stadium redevelopment over a slightly longer time frame in the interests of all our stakeholders.

Interpretation: we have no bloody money mate! Can you come over and run it for us & do you want to buy a football club?

[afanof]

Here is a letter just sent to:
Michael Jones ~ Head of Venue & customer Experience
Paddy Flavin ~ Project Management
cc Mark Ashton

Dear Sirs,

As a life long supporter of Watford Football Club, I am concerned at a seeming lack of management control and awareness & quiet clearly the poor & unacceptable dissemination of information surrounding the enabling works to facilitate the demolition of the East stand.



If you must write a letter that sounds like you are summoning someone to the Headmaster's study, you have to check it makes sense, especially in the opening paragraph.

[hornetmaster]

If you must write a letter that sounds like you are summoning someone to the Headmaster's study, you have to check it makes sense, especially in the opening paragraph.

Always a dangerous thing to do correcting someone`s work `Quite Quiet` really.:]]

[afanof]

Always a dangerous thing to do correcting someone`s work `Quite Quiet` really.:]]

I didn't correct it, I highlighted it in red :dismay:

This whole thing has blown up because of Kevin Affleck's sensationalisation of a story that was already on the offical site.

[Torontotimmy]

If you must write a letter that sounds like you are summoning someone to the Headmaster's study, you have to check it makes sense, especially in the opening paragraph.

Thankfully I am not like you where you miss the point & focus in on the pedantic.
The letter is actually no different that would be written in North America where employees are made to publicly account for their actions.
Working life here is focused, short & to the point, companies are customer centric, perhaps not so many people would not be leaving England if such attitudes & accountability were adopted there.

But I am sure you focusing in on the fact I used an 'and' instead of a comer will bring great accountability to the club, it must be difficult for you having such a complex. Here in Canada employers are much more employee focused, you could get help that would enable you to recognise the real issues as they affect the business & the customer.

But if the club write back & say they are not responding because of trivial grammar mistakes I will let you know & issue a board wide apology to you, somehow I doubt I will be troubled in that area.
But for now, I find your monosyllabic responses boring so suggest you go back to playing with your train set.

[Torontotimmy]

I didn't correct it, I highlighted it in red :dismay:

This whole thing has blown up because of Kevin Affleck's sensationalisation of a story that was already on the offical site.

Actually it has nothing whatsoever to do with Affleck ridiculous article. It is about the club now announcing that their much heralded project has gone off the rails & we are left begging to use our changing rooms.
It is about mismanagement of a project, I was not aware Affleck did anything other than say work had stopped.
It is about accountability, customer care & communication & judicious management of a project being undertaken at one of the towns most high profile facilities.

[GHorn]

i didnt actually notice any mistakes i think i automatically corrected the letter so i imagine that if the people who recieve the letter will do so aswell its nothing to stress about

[fan]

It is about accountability, customer care & communication & judicious management of a project being undertaken at one of the towns most high profile facilities.

accountability to who? this is what i don't get. surely unless you are some sort of stakeholder, be it either in the club or the businesses involved in the construction, then why would they ever reply?

[PaddingtonsYellowArmy]

If you must write a letter that sounds like you are summoning someone to the Headmaster's study, you have to check it makes sense, especially in the opening paragraph.

I must say i had a similar thought. But as its TT i decided against any banter as the letter/email isn't too bad and has probing questions considering he is a canuting canut;)

I wonder if one of the North american ( yanks do not get a capital A from me, afanof! I hate em! Capital N for Canadian part of N.a) banks wish to fund wfc - they seem keen to lend losers and dead beats who cannot pay their loans/mortgages back.:]]

On the subject - could it be Origin that are in trouble thus landing us with a potential bigger liability and these delays? If Origin were to go under, i say IF, only as a thought, due to the current housing market downturn and credit crunch. Maybe they are under severe financial restraints ( spell check will be switched on)

Relegation 08/09 wfc......

[kingjames77]

Here is a letter just sent to:
Michael Jones ~ Head of Venue & customer Experience
Paddy Flavin ~ Project Management
cc Mark Ashton

Dear Sirs,

As a life long supporter of Watford Football Club, I concerned at a seeming lack of management control and awareness & quiet clearly the poor & unacceptable dissemination of information surrounding the enabling works to facilitate the demolition of the East stand.

As a Vice President of Facilities Management responsible for an organisation that runs projects worth millions every year I am at a loss to understand how we can get to virtually the eve of the new season before you recognise and announce that the planned summer works would not be completed in time for the new season.

I have looked at the web sites of many Championship clubs over the past few days and realise that at Watford the board has clearly dedicated sufficient resources in providing two posts with a specific responsibility for the stadium with Project Management & Head of Venue and Customer Experience positions clearly engaged to ensure situations such as this do not go off the rails in the manner that has now occurred.
To be in a situation where the club finds itself unable to identify just where the players will change before the first home game is in my mind more than 'unfortunate timing' as described by Mr. Simpson, to me, it appears to be crass bad management.
However, I would welcome your response and you identifying to me why bad management, poor contract supervision and inadequate and or conflicting media and shareholder communication is not the issue here.

I would be grateful if you could provide questions to the following:

1. Am I correct in assuming that your original specification & tender documentation specified a time frame for completion of key or critical areas?
2. Was the criticality of these time frames discussed at pre contract award meetings, were you happy that the successful contractor fully understood & had the sufficient resources & expertise to deliver in accordance with the required time frames?
3. Did you agree and document with the main contractor in advance a project plan that delivered critical stages of the project in a time frame geared to accommodate the needs of the football team and heaven forbid the supporters?
4. How often did you hold project meetings to verify the progress to schedule?
5. When did anyone at the club realise deadlines would not be met?
6. Did your contract contain penalty clauses (liquidated andassertained damages) for gaining recompense and; offsetting additional costs borne by the club in the event of the contractor’s non delivery of critical components? Have you invoked those clauses and can we be assured that the costs of any temporary accommodation will be borne by the contractor?
7. Why did the Watfordfc web site carry an article on 2nd July talking very favorably of the progress when it must have been obvious that the works would not have been completed in time for the start of the season?
8. Why was the club not open with shareholders, supporters & media in disseminating this information in a speedy manner?
9. Who at Watford Football Club is taking accountability for these problems & is it fair to assume lessons have been learnt & will not be repeated?
I look forward to your response

Sincerely

Tim Whitehouse

Vancouver Island. British Columbia.
Canada

TT, cracking letter... fortunately for me, I am in a business that deals with Facilities Managers, large construction projects etc etc so I understant your questions entirely (unlike kids like afanof)

I think all your points are absolutely fair and SHOULD already have been asked by whoevers running this shambles.

For something of this size, an extended delay would have been obvious weeks, if not months ago so the article on July 2nd is at the very least, a little odd.

Penalty charges (something else I get involved in) is also an important point... there's no way Watford (being the mission critical organisation that they are) would not have inserted certain clauses within the pre-contract and given Origin no choice but to sign.

I very much look forward to hearing if you ever get anything back... sadly, I very much doubt it. Luckily you are too far away for WFC to take appropriate action and have you "removed" FBI style

The club have known about the east stand for years and years.. wasnt it condemned over 5 years ago now?

[wfc4ever]

The club have known about the east stand for years and years.. wasnt it condemned over 5 years ago now?

Half of it in about 2004/5?

Mind you I would like to know what has changed in the main bit of it to be "unsafe" since the Hull match?

[afanof]

Half of it in about 2004/5?

Mind you I would like to know what has changed in the main bit of it to be "unsafe" since the Hull match?

I don't think it has. The article reads as if there is some kind of trade-off. It was OK to use the East Stand until January when it was going to be demolished but the new player facilities won't be ready until the end of the season now so the changing rooms need to stay where they are for the whole season. By closing down the public areas they hope to get an extension on the use of the player and media facilities until the new ones are ready.

[UEA_Hornet]

I very much look forward to hearing if you ever get anything back... sadly, I very much doubt it

Did you ever contact Graham Simpson KJ?

[iljordan]

Well to be fair to Michael Jones I sent the club an email highlighting how disullusioned I was with the club about 4-6 weeks ago, not only did I get a reply but he went to the trouble of looking me up on their database and rang me to discuss my letter. Credit where its due, I was impressed.

[PaddingtonsYellowArmy]

Well to be fair to Michael Jones I sent the club an email highlighting how disullusioned I was with the club about 4-6 weeks ago, not only did I get a reply but he went to the trouble of looking me up on their database and rang me to discuss my letter. Credit where its due, I was impressed.

IJ - was there anything constructive said that made you feel less disillusioned? Or was it club spin as various people on here may say?

Did they reverse the charges of the call - if not - all may not be as bad as A Fleck says;)

[kingjames77]

Did you ever contact Graham Simpson KJ?

As it happens I havent just yet... I started writing an email but I kept asking questions and guessing what the answer would be Simpson style.

For now, I'm going to wait and see what the WST has to say after their meetiing with the chairman. It was scheduled for the 7th August and they were saying that they would try and bring it forward. Either way, there should be some sort of statement in the next week or so and im going to wait for that before I send anything as I'll probably only ask the same questions as they will

[bogsider]

Well done TT, the correct questions asked, in the correct language for the issues raised.

Any construction project has a programme, completion dates, liquidated damages etc, included at tender stage.

At the 'pre-start' meeting the successful tenderer would also have to furnish PS/PC sums, Method Statements, Risk Assessments, and their Control Measures before work could even begin onsite.

As for Paddy Flavin being head of Project Management .... please do me a favour.

He is an ex-copper, ffs, with no construction background - for the very dim on here, a Project Manager normally has Surveying, or an Engineering, qualification ..... rather than a former career in beating up drunks on a friday night!

[afanof]

I don't think it has. The article reads as if there is some kind of trade-off. It was OK to use the East Stand until January when it was going to be demolished but the new player facilities won't be ready until the end of the season now so the changing rooms need to stay where they are for the whole season. By closing down the public areas they hope to get an extension on the use of the player and media facilities until the new ones are ready.

It seems there was no need to panic.

[Torontotimmy]

No news yet, so far I have only received an out of office reply

[Torontotimmy]

Well, here it is, courteous but without much content & certainly not addressing the questions raised.

It is interesting that the club feels they have sufficient quality & quantity of people looking after the project
"I would like to assure you that there are numerous highly qualified advisor's and contractors involved in the delivery of the project."
One would think that someone might have noticed things going off schedule.

The paragraph of response concerning the changing rooms seems to contradict the media release immediately below where the club states that the stadiums safety authority has accepted proposals.....I am left wondering what the options are if they had not!

So, does anyone think I should reply with any further probing or should I just write back courteously thanking them for the reply.



Firstly, thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in replying to you. As you can imagine at this stage of the season and given the recent speculation surrounding the Club we have had numerous emails from individual supporters around a variety of subjects.



Secondly, both Michael Jones and Paddy Flavin have passed this email through to me as neither of them are responsible for the management of this project; as my website profile states, I assume responsibility for the current works at Vicarage Road.



To your point regarding the 'lack of management control', I would like to assure you that there are numerous highly qualified advisors and contractors involved in the delivery of the project. These include Origin Housing Association and their contractors, Kier of London, who are responsible for delivery of the south-west corner structure as part of the overall housing development taking shape on the site.



I would also add that despite the assertions made, at no time have the Club been in a position where it 'cannot identify' where the players are going to change prior to the first home game.



Please see below the statement made by the club today

WATFORD Football Club is today (Wednesday) able to announce that the Stadium's Safety Authority has accepted proposals for the continued use of certain East Stand facilities by the Club.

These facilities include the changing rooms, technical area, media seating, the former directors' seating area and both the PA and Hospital Radio booths.

The club has put in place a number of control measures to minimise risk to safety and these will be constantly reviewed by the stadium management team and monitored by the Safety Advisory Group.

As for the details of any contractual information, either with our and/or other parties' contractors, I am sure you would agree it is neither right nor proper to disclose these, and I am sure you would feel as strongly if placed in a similar position yourself.



Kind regards

Name removed by TT
Operations Director

[hollywood]

Well, here it is, courteous but without much content & certainly not addressing the questions raised.

It is interesting that the club feels they have sufficient quality & quantity of people looking after the project
"I would like to assure you that there are numerous highly qualified advisor's and contractors involved in the delivery of the project."
One would think that someone might have noticed things going off schedule.

The paragraph of response concerning the changing rooms seems to contradict the media release immediately below where the club states that the stadiums safety authority has accepted proposals.....I am left wondering what the options are if they had not!

So, does anyone think I should reply with any further probing or should I just write back courteously thanking them for the reply.



Firstly, thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in replying to you. As you can imagine at this stage of the season and given the recent speculation surrounding the Club we have had numerous emails from individual supporters around a variety of subjects.



Secondly, both Michael Jones and Paddy Flavin have passed this email through to me as neither of them are responsible for the management of this project; as my website profile states, I assume responsibility for the current works at Vicarage Road.



To your point regarding the 'lack of management control', I would like to assure you that there are numerous highly qualified advisors and contractors involved in the delivery of the project. These include Origin Housing Association and their contractors, Kier of London, who are responsible for delivery of the south-west corner structure as part of the overall housing development taking shape on the site.



I would also add that despite the assertions made, at no time have the Club been in a position where it 'cannot identify' where the players are going to change prior to the first home game.



Please see below the statement made by the club today

WATFORD Football Club is today (Wednesday) able to announce that the Stadium's Safety Authority has accepted proposals for the continued use of certain East Stand facilities by the Club.

These facilities include the changing rooms, technical area, media seating, the former directors' seating area and both the PA and Hospital Radio booths.

The club has put in place a number of control measures to minimise risk to safety and these will be constantly reviewed by the stadium management team and monitored by the Safety Advisory Group.

As for the details of any contractual information, either with our and/or other parties' contractors, I am sure you would agree it is neither right nor proper to disclose these, and I am sure you would feel as strongly if placed in a similar position yourself.



Kind regards

Name removed by TT
Operations Director

you're right, no real answers.

more spin than a 1600 washing machine on, ermmm spin.

thank you tt for your efforts, you seem to be a passionate supporter. Good to see.

[wfcmoog]

I'd hoped the "out of office" reply meant that those responsible had left the building - for good.

No real answers there. How about "Thanks for the email, the answer is straightforward - we're not fit to run a bath, let alone a football club. Up the 'Orns."

[Birdydoug]

you're right, no real answers.

more spin than a 1600 washing machine on, ermmm spin.

thank you tt for your efforts, you seem to be a passionate supporter. Good to see.

I was at the Hospital on Tuesday and they are still working on site.

[afanof]

The paragraph of response concerning the changing rooms seems to contradict the media release immediately below where the club states that the stadiums safety authority has accepted proposals.....I am left wondering what the options are if they had not!



"I would also add that despite the assertions made, at no time have the Club been in a position where it 'cannot identify' where the players are going to change prior to the first home game. "




My understanding is that they had a safety certificate to use the East Stand in its entirety until January so changing prior to the first home game was never an issue.

[PaddingtonsYellowArmy]

I am very shocked at our bad luck. Poor ol wfc - the first ever construction of a building to go off time scale, be delayed and probably under costed.

Why is it always wfc who suffers. We should have used the channel tunnel contractors jointly with the wemberlee builders.

[hollywood]

I am very shocked at our bad luck. Poor ol wfc - the first ever construction of a building to go off time scale, be delayed and probably under costed.

Why is it always wfc who suffers. We should have used the channel tunnel contractors jointly with the wemberlee builders.

I almost laughed at that.

I decided to cry instead.

[wfcmoog]

I am very shocked at our bad luck. Poor ol wfc - the first ever construction of a building to go off time scale, be delayed and probably under costed.

Yeah, but with Wembley, didn't the construction company (multiplex) bear the budget shorfall?

[Torontotimmy]

Yeah, but with Wembley, didn't the construction company (multiplex) bear the budget shorfall?

And didn't those 2 c*** ups give someone a clue that they might be wise to tie up a watertight contract in the event that poor ol Watford suffered the same problems.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....if you bother or are wise enough to take it into account!

[PaddingtonsYellowArmy]

Yeah, but with Wembley, didn't the construction company (multiplex) bear the budget shorfall?

no idea moogy, an interesting question, will look out for any contingency liabilty note in the acounts to 30.6.08 or it may just be added to contracted capital commitments. If not signed off until November time and if the building work is late, stopped or under budgeted - and any cost/liabilty is attributable to wfc, somewhee in the accounts the contingency/cost should be noted, as should the costs contracted for.

[PaddingtonsYellowArmy]

And didn't those 2 c*** ups give someone a clue that they might be wise to tie up a watertight contract in the event that poor ol Watford suffered the same problems.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....if you bother or are wise enough to take it into account!

I am not privy to the contract to give you an answer of they did or they didn't take it into account.

I would agree with you a major level of incompetence if anyone taking on such a project of a stadium redevelopment, Key housing construction and comfy directors box with padded seats didn't consider that a 3 year development plan would be a little of time scale and add fault clauses.

Does anyone actually know if the time thingy re east stand is wfc fault.

It is my understanding that the corner bit is delayed due to the shyte they are digging up for the foundations being a problem or such like stuff. Surely this shytelike stuff would be the same shytelike stuff that was dug up in erecting the Rous ( lets sit there like lemons ) stand or was the earth under the rous real earth, proper like that normal construction companies can deal with easily. Is the few feet between the corner and the rous an ucking fault line or something? if so why does watford never have an earthquake?

[Torontotimmy]

That's funny Paddy!

I guess they never thought of drilling a couple of core samples well in advance?

I seem to remember every few years loads of clinker was dumped there which was supposed to be a terrace!